Wikisource talk:Open Mishnah Project

Talk archive: 1

Hebrew help?
I just discovered this, and I'm excited about the project! I just added two mishnayot to experiment with editing. How do I type in Hebrew in the editing window? To get the Hebrew text of the mishnah, it's easy enough to copy and paste from the Hebrew version, but if I want to edit (e.g.) the link at the bottom to the corresponding Hebrew article, I can't see a way to do that without copying and pasting individual letters. Copying and pasting between the wiki editing window and DavkaWriter seems to do no good. Thanks for any assistance! Dreyfus 04:06, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Hi Dreyfus! Glad to have you onboard!
 * If you use Windows, there is a way to install a button at the bottom of the screen, which you use to select which language you want to type in. You can move back and forth. I don't remember offhand how to install it, but I can check it out. This is the way most Israelis switch easily from typing English/Hebrew when they use the internet. (You have to learn to type with a Hebrew keyboard.
 * Davka is really weird when you try to cut and paste (it messes up thingns with RTL direction). Most Israelis either use Hebrew Word, which works properly, or the Hebrew version of Open Office, which you can download for free. I suggest the latter (go to (openoffice.org). Then you can easily type, copy, paste, etc. into your edit box. Dovi 06:09, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, I found it. If you have Windows, go to "My Computer" and select "Control Panel." Then select "Keyboard" and then "Language." You probably have English selected already. Select Hebrew too. From now on, to switch the language you are typing you either click the "En/He" button at the bottom of your screen, or hit "alt-shift" which accomplishes the same thing and switches the language that you will type from your keyboard. (By the way, I still have Windows 98, so the exact way of doing this may be different in never versions.)Dovi 07:46, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Tishri 4, 5770 (9/21/09) To change keyboard in XP or Vista, go here: http://www.conversationexchange.com/resources/keyboard-language.php Also, translation summaries of Mishnah appear on Bet Midrash Virtuali website: http://www.bmv.org.il/  - Touvania

Vowelized text
I have no idea how to make vowelized text. If someone would like to go in and vowelize the text I'd be grateful.


 * One place online to find vowelized text is at this website:
 * Mishnah Yomit
 * Dovi 16:52, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately they're currently only doing masechet shabbat, but hopefully after they add a calendar for cheshvan they'll have some of eruvin. In the mean time I'm just going to use the unvowelized mishnas from www.mechon-mamre.org until I can find vowelized eruvin. --Bachrach44 18:05, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * True, I didn't notice the calendar wasn't updated. But if you sign up for their daily e-mail they will send you two vowelized mishnayot from Eruvin each day. Dovi 18:08, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

categories
Currently all mishnaot are added to a category whose name is the named of the masechta. For example, Mishnah Berakhot 1:1 and Mishnah Berakhot 1:2 are both in Category:Mishnah Berakhot. The organization within that category has, up till now, been rather illogical (IMO). If you look at Category:Mishnah Berakhot, you'll notice that since every page starts with the letter M (for Mishnah), there is no real sorting of the articles, and the problem will only become larger as the mishnah is filled out. I've started a slightly different organization system for Category:Mishnah Eruvin where each mishnah is sorted by its chapter and mishnah number. I'm curious as to what people think. Take a look at both Category:Mishnah Berakhot and Category:Mishnah Eruvin and vote for which sorting method you like better. (Or, come up with a third idea, because I will be the first to admit that neither method is extremely good). --Bachrach44 18:03, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * See Hebrew Mishnah Berakhot for a rather simple technical solution to this problem. I do the first two mishnayot in English now as a quick example for you. Dovi 19:37, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay, that was odd - for some reason when I inserted my links to categories, the wikified links didn't show up, which probably made my original post a little harder to understand. Anyway, I've fixed the problem with the post, and it looks like we both agree on how we should sort from now on. (I don't think there are too many other active users right now, but if there are any with other ideas, please post). --Bachrach44 20:48, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Mishnah Yomit
I've sent Rabbi Siegel an email about using the Mishnah Yomit translation, for our project. I need to give him a call and will report on what he says. Karimarie 16:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi + Suggestion
So, Karimarie got me to come over here to Wikisource to help with the project. I'm looking forward it - the OMP is something which could become really useful as it progresses.

I made a suggestion at Translation Talk:Mishnah/Seder Zeraim/Tractate Berakhot about the formatting of the Mesechta pages. They are so much more annoying to navigate than, say, the Seder pages. --Eliyak T · C 05:24, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * OMP is something that is sorely needed... There is no complete copy of the mishnah online in English and no real online source text for the commentaries, so hopefully we'll be able to make a great change in that. I saw your suggestion regarding the organisation of the pages for the masekhtot. The format here mostly just mirrors the version at the Hebrew Wikisource, except in the Latin alphabet rather than the Hebrew alefbet. I'm not sure if I agree if it's more difficult to navigate the way that it is, but if you'd like to make the change, go right ahead. Your version seems easy enough for me. Kari Hazzard  ( T  |  C ) 14:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * While I'm busy making suggestions, let me also say that such categories as category:Mishnah Seder Moed and are going to get very full, and very difficult to organize easily, as the various mishnah pages are made. I think that the mishnah pages should not be categorized above the Tractate Categories to avoid this problem. --Eliyak T · C 04:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd think it'd probably be best if the mishnah pages were put in a masekhet category rather than a seder category. Actually, are seder categories even needed at all? If we added all of the masekhtot categories to the Mishnah category, there'd still only be ~65 articles in it. Kari Hazzard  ( T  |  C ) 14:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Guidelines for Completion
What commentaries need to be included for an mishnah page to be considered 'complete'? I'd figure we'd need at the very least Rambam's commentary, The Bartanura and the Vilna Gaon's commentary. I'd love it if we could get the Kehati in there as its something a lot of people are studying right now, but as it's probably still copyrighted (even in its original Hebrew), I'd think that one's unlikely. Kari Hazzard ( T  |  C ) 14:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm going to amend our guidelines slightly. A page can now be marked 50% even if it does not have vowels in the Hebrew, but it must still have that for 75%. The reason for the change is I feel I set the original bar far too high. Kari Hazzard  ( T  |  C ) 15:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Snazzy new templates
I've created two templates for new page creation – Mishnah Page and Mishnah Tractate – and described their basic functionality at Open Mishnah Project/Mishnah Page and Open Mishnah Project/Mishnah Tractate, respectively. They should speed up the process of creating new pages considerably.

We shouldn't go crazy creating new pages without mishnayot, of course... though it is a lot of fun.--Eliyak T · C 22:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Very snazzy indeed! :D Kari Hazzard  ( T  |  C ) 14:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Translation formating
I like what the Schottenstein Talmud does, bolding the raw translation, inserted words in nonbold, rather than what we're currently doing, putting inserted words in braces. Should we follow their method? Kari Hazzard ( T  |  C ) 14:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm open to that, but have no strong feelings one way or the other. --Eliyak T · C 05:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)


 * After seeing some pages that you've done with that format, I don't like it so much anymore. I feel it's confusing when used on Wikisource-style pages, and some other style of formatting would be better. --Eliyak T · C 04:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Translation location
After browsing Wikisource talk:Labeled section transclusion, I realized that translations need not necessarily be located at "template pages" in order to be included. See how I have moved the translation for Berakhot 1:1 to Translation:Mishnah/Seder Zeraim/Tractate Berakhot/Chapter 1/1/Translation, and still included it at Translation:Mishnah/Seder Zeraim/Tractate Berakhot/Chapter 1/1. This is better than its previous location, because it is now within the Mishnah/../.. structure, and therefore easier to locate and deal with.

Probably in the end everything will be on the main mishnah page anyway, with section transclusion letting us make pages like the chapter pages.--Eliyak T · C 05:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm going to go ahead and do this to all the translation pages. --Eliyak T · C 01:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow. Cool. When did they implement this? :O Kari Hazzard  ( T  |  C ) 01:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Ehmmm, I mean I'm going to move all the translation pages into the Mishnah/../ structure. As far as I know, labeled section transclusion is not yet implemented. --Eliyak T · C 03:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd just like to note that in Hebrew, where we also used to put small snippets of text into templates for transclusion, we stopped doing that and instead use a separate namespace for text-snippets called "keta" (which means "passage" as in "a passage from a text"). What you are doing here is very elegant by keeping everything very organized in terms of subpages. I would note, however, that for each such snippet (e.g. the translation text for a single mishnah) you are adding a full page to the main namespace. The truth is that there is also a "Page:" namespace here at English Wikisource that might (or might not) be available for what you are doing, similar to Hebrew's "keta". I don't really know what the best option is, just trying to help point out the alternatives... Dovi 08:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Great contributions
I guess it is a little late for this, but I've been noticing the positive activity on Translation:Mishnah over the past couple of months, and on a personal level I am quite gratified. Thanks to Karimarie and Eliyak, who have been fundamentally re-thinking this project, organizing it, and adding to it.

Way back in 2004, it was to a significant degree the desire for a wiki platform that could support Translation:Mishnah, coordinated in several languages, that pushed me to get Hebrew Wikisource started, as well as eventually to help get Wikisource in its entirety moved into language domains (which finally happened in September 2005). The early Mishnah content was added by myself and a few others. As the history page for the Open Mishnah Project shows, the early tribulations of the OMP were bound up with the tribulations of Wikisource as a whole. I'm glad that the OMP now has its home here at Wikisource. (People should continue to update the history page with whatever changes they make and whatever milestones they reach.)

As Eliyak has indicated recently, there are still software limitions on what can currently be done, but there are also ways to get around and add good content in the meantime, even given those limitations. Any extra push to get Labeled section transclusion implemented would also help Mishnah in particular a great deal (not to mention other texts unrelated to it). So vote for the bug; gently bother people on IRC and on the mailing lists; send e-mails to developers.

But mainly, thanks for bringing this project back to life. And don't forget to keep the lines of communication and coordination open with others working on it, in Hebrew, French, etc.

Chodesh Tov!Dovi 07:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)


 * How do I vote for the bug? I see some great possibilities for section transclusion, including having chapter pages with Hebrew text only, like the current English pages, and having the explanation section at the bottom of English translation pages without Hebrew, for those to whom the Hebrew is relatively useless. (This is why I have been adding headers to the translation pages as I move them.) --Eliyak T · C 01:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The bug is here. Go there, create a bugzilla account, and then click "Vote for this bug" at the bottom of the bug page. Dovi 03:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Vowels in the Hebrew
I'm not sure what was wrong, but for some reason for the last few months Hebrew vowels (on the English Wikipedia and English Wikisource) have not been rendering correctly in Firefox and it makes the Hebrew text look all weird and nonsensical. So I've engineered and  to circumvent the problem. The mishnah page template has been updated accordingly. Kari Hazzard ( T  |  C ) 13:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Complexity
Am I alone in thinking the process for creating a mishna is amazingly complex? I'm no expert in wikitext, that's true, and the How to Contribute page was very useful. But boy, it took a long time and all I did was reformat masechet Kiddushin according to those instructions. A translation for the first mishna had already been posted, but didn't include any of the templated elements, and I can see why. Still, now it's done, I think. If anyone cares to saunter over to check, I'd be happy to know if there's some part of the technical procedure that I haven't done quite correctly.

I suspect something's not quite right, because the link to the Plain complete chapter is empty, even though there's a mishna there. —unsigned comment by User: (talk).
 * Yes, it is very complex... But the goal of having the wisdom of Torah accessible to everyone, even those without deep pockets is a good enough reason to motivate some of us to work towards it, even if it will take many years. Kari Hazzard  ( T  |  C ) 16:18, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello! I am also translating Mishnah on Wikisource, and would like to join the Open Mishnah Project. I am in the middle of completing Maseches Avodah Zarah

Talmud, Wednesday, September 17, 10:51 PM Eastern Time

Sanhedrin
I have just completed, in private study, a translation of Sanhedrin.

I plan on updating this project with that translation over a period of time. Ideally I'll finish around August, but I make no promises.

--Gnat (talk) 21:13, 3 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Wonderful! Dovi (talk) 02:15, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Possible goals for 2013
This is probably more than a bit presumptuous on my part, but I have started a discussion at w:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion in the English wikipedia asking what if any sort of goals we might be able to reasonably set for the next year, in wikipedia and other WF sites as well. I figured the wikipedia probably gets more attention, which is why I started the discussion there. But I would be very interested in seeing any input regarding what the editors here think might be the areas here most in need or meriting additional attention. Maybe, and at this point it is just a maybe, maybe we might be able to get some input on such topics if we have some idea what it is we really need to work on. Anyway, I would welcome any input anyone here might have. John Carter (talk) 19:46, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Mishnah Translation Project on Sefaria.org
If anyone is still watching this page, I'd love to get your input on a Mishnah translation project on Sefaria.org. First I'd like to express my gratitude for all the work that has gone into the Open Mishnah project and all the amazing translations you've created with free licenses. I've been working on Sefaria for some time and wanted to explore the possibility of trying to make a translation project like this as easy as possible to get started with, so that we could reach out to and get participation from a far greater number of people. I'm looking for feedback on the project designs, since the people here have the most experience collaborative translating the Mishnah of anyone in the world. Take a look this page and let me know what issues you think we should be thinking about. We haven't announced this project yet except to our own contributor discussion list. Thanks. Sefaria Mishnah Translation Campaign.