Wikisource:Copyright discussions/Archives/2011-10

=Kept=

High Flight
My name is Ray Haas, and I am writing a book and producing a film based on the life of John Gillespie Magee, Jr., author of the poem in question, "High Flight." I have done nearly 20 years worth of research on Magee's life and have the definitive answer to the question of copyright as it concerns "High Flight." The following is from my (not yet published) book:

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The sonnet "High Flight" by John Gillespie Magee, Jr., is considered in the Public Domain, meaning that no permission is required to reproduce it. This information has been verified by members of the Magee family.

There is also mention of the question of copyright in a letter that Mrs. Faith Magee (John's mother) wrote to the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) on June 2nd, 1943 (letter is on file at Library and Archives Canada; I have a copy). In this letter John’s mother is replying to a request by the New York Herald Tribune asking permission to copyright High Flight. Mrs. Magee writes:

“I had already written to Mr. Miller, telling him that “High Flight” was not copyrighted and that Thomas Nelson would be free to use it in their textbooks as they pleased.”

Later in the same letter Mrs. Magee explains further:

“When we first received the poem from our son in England, it was printed in our Church leaflet here in Washington. A little later on, when we took up the matter of copyrighting it with the authorities at the Library [of Congress], they informed us that this could not now be done as it had already been in print. We were at first disappointed and felt we had made a mistake, but when our son was killed we were glad that a copyright had not been taken out, as it was possible for it to be printed widely throughout the country without permission being obtained from us.”

Thus, as far back as June of 1942, High Flight was considered in the Public Domain.

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I have documentation for all of the above. Please feel free to contact me with any questions and/or comments! (ray@redacting email Jeepday (talk) 11:58, 23 October 2011 (UTC))

Reflections on war and death
=Deleted=

Industrial Society and Its Future
{{closed|1= Delete, there are many arguments for keep and delete here. Without rehashing the discussion, the concerns of those who suggesting delete can not be overcome without some legal clarification. That clarification may never come, so it is unlikely that the {{tl|copyvio}} will find consensus for removal. There is no intent to set any standard in this closure. The content is of questionable public domain status and clarity is not expected in the near future. Jeepday (talk) 12:08, 22 October 2011 (UTC) |text=


 * moved from Proposed Deletions to here. Sorry for the mix-up. GO3.

This is the Unabomber's infamous manifesto. Since the original publication by various newspapers in response to the threats of bodily harm, a Federal court has ruled that all of Teddy's works seized by the Federal government in connection with the prosecution of his crimes, including the manifesto's drafts, were to be put up for auction in order to satisfy the outstanding amount (in the millions of U.S. dollars) in repirations due to his victims. The following URL has a good summary of the specifics with many links throughout, but there are quite a bit more out there as well.... Search results linking the various rulings...
 * http://articles.technology.findlaw.com/2006/Aug/28/10216.html
 * http://caselaw.findlaw.com/search?search_type=party&court=us-9th-circuit&text=KACZYNSKI&subject=0&casenum=0&date_start=&date_end=

Since his attempt to place this work in the public domain was made in lieu of an unlawful act in the first place and now the leins against any potential or existing benefit(s) that may be derived from these works by his victims I believe Wikisource should not host works than remain in such a legal state of flux. — George Orwell III ( talk ) 15:46, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it the documents that are for sale, or the copyright? I wouldn't have thought that anyone who bought the works would be able to claim the copyright of the works sheerly through purchase of the works. Until I see articles that address that matter, I do not see that we have a change in the status of the works. — billinghurst  sDrewth  15:51, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It's the lien against the works that is the issue not the physical paper or percieved copyright. — George Orwell III ( talk ) 16:05, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I might be wrong (happens sometimes) but from the link provided it is "Personal Property" that is for sale, which happen to include "Writings". If the intellectual property which writes have been released to Public Domain, we can host them.  I can own the original "Writings"  of Author:Samuel Langhorne Clemens, but the copyright of the words is Public Domain. JeepdaySock (talk) 16:33, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe the court ruling puts in jeopardy any supposed placing of the work in the public domain, not so much the physical copies or claim to authorship themselves. He may indeed still be the copyright owner but exercising his right to reproduce (or place it in or out of PD in this case) is no longer his and his alone -- the victims granted repirations now curtail any claim of exclusivity. I'm not a lawyer but the accepted practice until now has been to avoid legal gray areas when it comes to manifestos and to err on the side of caution.
 * The circumstances in which the attempt to place in public domain where done in conjunction with the executon of an unlawful act (publish this or people will die) so I don't believe that was valid to begin with. Skip ahead in time and now the court will not let him even donate such works, never mind sell, unless the victims are made whole (the court finding they are owed a sum still in the millions of dollars) in the process. I believe it is safe to surmise that not only was the original attempt to place the work in the public domain bogus but now there is an additional burden of needing the victims to relent, then agree to, furthering any reproduction (or in this case, placing into PD) of any of his works. Either way, I believe the legal clarity no longer exists and therefore the work should be removed in light of the new legal ambiguity. — George Orwell III ( talk ) 16:54, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

{{anchor|legal3}}
 * § 204. Execution of transfers of copyright ownership
 * (a) A transfer of copyright ownership,, is not valid unless an instrument of conveyance, or a note or memorandum of the transfer, is in writing and signed by the owner of the rights conveyed or such owner's duly authorized agent.


 * Definition of Operation of law
 * ... a legal term that indicates that a right or liability has been created for a party, irrespective of the intent of that party, because it is dictated by existing legal principles. ...


 * Party which the operation of law created right for: the Victims. Existing legal principles = Statute: Title 18
 * § 3613(f). Civil remedies for satisfaction of an unpaid fine
 * per
 * § 3664(m)(1)(A). Procedure for issuance and enforcement of order of restitution

The idea you are guaranteed or secure the rights to anything, let alone in this case -- exercising the right to place works or claim rights of authorship during the execution of what later became a conviction under plea bargain of a Federal crime never mind the threshold of any unlawful act at all -- not supported by any legal argument but defies common sense in the process. To boot, the convicted AGREED to this lien when he accepted the plea bargain assuring no death penalty would be sought during sentencing. — George Orwell III ( talk ) 17:52, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * delete A Slate article confirms that George Orwell III's assertions are held by some legal experts. There being doubt, we should err on the side of caution. Prosody (talk) 20:00, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete, I concur, there is reasonable question about the copyright status. Until such time that the works are clearly in the public domain they should not be on WS. JeepdaySock (talk) 10:34, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete - better to be conservative. - Theornamentalist (talk) 12:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. The document is in the public domain (In his letter to the FBI Kaczynski wrote that the article "must become public property" six months after its publication) and the Slate article is four years old and does not claim the copyright was contested. The article is about Ted Kaczynski's ownership of the physical manuscript and only mentions the copyright in a "what if" context and does not cite any legal experts. George Orwell III's link also refers to his physical possessions and not the copyright. The copyright status is not in question, and moral objections to its availability on Wikisource should not be discussed here. --Protious (talk) 17:11, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, the idea that we should "err on the side of caution" is not valid, since any possible future lawsuit making the article copyrighted will not be retroactive. --Protious (talk) 17:17, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep. The text from the talk page around the rights to the copyright are clearly annunciated and state that the work was put into the public domain, and it has been in the public domain for a number of years. The cited court ruling states "The current Plan, however, is strictly limited to the physical originals of the documents previously seized from Kaczynski's cabin." so it is completely speculative that copyright can be or will be affected, especially when they come from unnamed sources who are not citing either relevant legislation or legal precedent.  I do agree on a conservative approach, and that has been where there has been lack of clarity on release to the public domain, which is not the case here. At this point in time there seems a legal basis to maintain the work.  This work can be hosted in my opinion, and as the text has been freely and widely published as being in the public domain, should continue to be hosted until the off chance that we get a takedown notice, or are instructed to do so on the advice of the Wikimedia Foundation. I look forward with interest to the case and its appeal to the Supreme Court, and to see how and where American's constitutional approach to free speech, and a civil damages claim interacts with the author's right to the intellectual property and when they can give it away, and copyright law. — billinghurst  sDrewth  00:07, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Cabin trinkets part of WHOLE auction but just a portion of the ENTIRE ruling. And if you kept reading thru ALL the rulings (now linked way above).....

The restitution lien statute assists the government in collecting unpaid restitution orders that have been imposed on those convicted of federal crimes. The statute provides that a lien arises automatically upon entry of judgment against these individuals and may be enforced against all property and property rights, regardless of the nature of the property. The statute is thus generally applied to all individuals subject to restitution orders, is not dependent upon the discretion of any government officials, and does not vary according to the type of property that is owned by these individuals. Because a restitution lien, like any other tax lien, can be constitutionally applied in many cases, Kaczynski's facial challenge must fail.
 * Please note once again: the issue here is the LIEN per the ordered restitution per the entered upon plea-bargain at the time of conviction, retroactive to the point in time the crime(s) against the victims, named or unnamed, were committed. The auction only being one of many parts of the effort to satisfy the outstanding amount that was ordered. Please understand that the media mostly reported on the sensational part of the ruling, the auction itself and the cabin items seized. FINE. NO ARGUMENT THE AUCTION CONCERNED ONLY SEIZED ITEMS BY THE GOVERNMENT. NOW PLEASE ADDRESS THE REST OF THE ORDERED LIEN (the top 4 statutes are linked above now as well). The remaining non-sensational, under-reported portion of the restitution ruling is all encompassing (all rights, all property, be they physical in nature or not, secured in the past or not, perceived by only a few people or just remotely possible sometime in the future) as clearly (re)stated in the 2009 ruling quoted above. What?? the claim here is once the auction was over and all the items were exhausted that an outstanding amount was somehow raised, the lien then somehow became satisfied so the victims' previously created and or transfered rights were then automagically disolved then returned exclusively to the the convicted as if nothing happened? I don't buy that and nobody should. A transfer of rights took place in lieu of an operation of law. YES it was after the fact (i.e. after the crime(s), after the letter(s) were sent, after the publication and circulation stipulation attempted, after he got caught. after he was "tied" to the document in question as indeed the first-fixating recognized creator of said document, after the trial took place and after his plea-bargained conviction was secured. Yes. Yes. Yes. & Yes plus a Yes just in case.All that makes no difference and has no bearing on the operation of law and/or the creation and/or transference of rights then afforded to the victims as ordered by the courts AND as the alledged author agreed to in a plea-bargain. This is retroactive, non-individual specific and generally automatic by the nature of the existing laws involved (above). The victims were already "tied" to this work and any other related rights and property that may or may not exist by the alledged author in question from the moment of the crime against "them" were concieved -- making any individual attempt by the alleged copyright holder to exercise any right dead on inception as well as null & void prior to the attempted exercise of perceived right, unlawful or not, even took place. The fact this did not become legally clear until much later than the supposed attempt to place the work in the public domain means nothing when it becomes clear he was never the exclusive rights holder by that point. The fact he lost his anonymity in authorship of the work at trial only helps drive a distinction between lawful and unlawful claim to copyright; not help him skate on the facts at hand. It was a mistake to host the work while the legal appeals process and sentencing reviews were still taking place. Now we know better thanks to the various legal wranglings in question being exhausted one by one and closed to any further debate. The notion such a cut and dry ruling sees the Supreme Court is misplaced. — George Orwell III ( talk ) 01:16, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Question: this seems like a particularly complicated legal situation. Could we ask the WMF lawyers for an official opinion? - Htonl (talk) 02:01, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That would put the matter in question to rest. The question is not about the status of ownership of work; this is clearly retained by the now understood-to-be author of the work - Mr. Kaczynski. It is one or more of the the rights granted by this ownership status that were never really allowable for him to be exercised -- first because the attempt to exercise the right of placement does not usurp the victims' rights infringed upon when taking place in conjunction with the numerous crimes being committed in the process. Second He admitted as much when he signed the plea-bargaining deal sparing him the death penalty that, at the same time waived most of his rights by his own hand, and then tried to rectify these violations against his victims & their rights and protections by imposing a lien against anything and everything remaining at his disposal that might earn him a single penny or increase his notoriety by one notch; insuring the value of his writings never become monetized or academically realized in the process. Until this lien is satisfied (over 10 million dollars is still owed) these rights granted by normal ownership, as well as many other defined rights being curtailed and properties liquidated not related to the question of copyright ownership property or rights, became part of the lien. Since the work was never lawfully placed in the public domain to begin with, any right to do so lawfully pre-capture or post-conviction being waived by him in the plea agreement deal since and on top the fact any exercising of the right to place in PD moving forward needs to be done by those victims outlined in the ordered restitution settlement now, we should not be hosting this work knowing what we know at this moment in time. The lien holders are the ones, by operation of law, currently holding the lien against the 2 rights we need clearly and completely exercised here on WS to host this and any other works by the same author as they relate to the same convicted crimes, etc.


 * 1) the right to reproduce the copyrighted work (public domain in this case - NOT, see the unlawful act violating rights of others, the plea bargain waiving remaining rights, victim's hold rights via the lien above 1 more time if it helps)
 * 2) the right to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work (Attribution/CC3 etc - NOT, convict's right to exercise any of the rights normally granted to copyright owners transferred until lien is satisfied. It's safe to say the victims are unlikely to [co]consent to this anytime soon either).


 * Kaczynski's works, it seems, are currently not meant to be enjoyed or studied or whatever term you'd like to use here by other people, as well as by himself, while he is still alive and/or until that lien is removed by another operation of law in the future or satisfied by total dollar amount paid in full. Neither of the latter is likely to happen in his lifetime and that was the ultimate purpose, a purpose now ruled legal and in effect by the 9th Federal District and Appeals courts again for the 3rd time in 2009, really behind this legal construct. Its that simple. — George Orwell III ( talk ) 03:26, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Simple is hardly the word. ;-) No offence to you; just that the legalities seem to be inordinately complicated. It is clear to me now that there has been, as you say, a lien on all of Kaczynski's property as from the date of his conviction in terms of the plea bargain. What is not clear to me, though, is whether the copyright to his manifesto was still his property at the time of conviction, given that he had already purported to release it to the public domain before that time. I am not aware that works can be retroactively removed from the public domain (URAA excepted). Of course, if it wasn't lawful for him to release it to PD at the time, then that question becomes moot. But this is why I would really like, if possible, to have a WMF lawyer render a proper opinion on this, because I don't think we here are really qualified. - Htonl (talk) 05:23, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Ownership is still his and that is unwavering in its exclusivity. This ownership comes with the granting of certain rights and/or protections. Some these are the right to duplication, the right to sell copies to the public, the right to freely place with the public [domain], the right to create derivative works based on the original, etc. etc. These defined rights may be transferred to some other entity independent of the copyright ownership itself. For example, one can license the rights of [re]distribution to one organization or another with limits on exclusivity expiring after an agreed upon length of time, grant free re-use of the work by a not-for-profit organization as long as proper attribution to the copyright holder(s) is included in their end-product and even sell the rights to create a derivative of the work ultimately arriving in the form of a motion picture and still be the copyright owner all at the same time.


 * It is these type of rights (and protections) that makes having ownership actually worth something, be it on a personal academic level or financially profitable in nature. As hastily alluded to above, one can see that not only can you transfer copyright ownership in its full shape and form but also piecemeal transfer out (or sell forever) the individual segments of the ownership in the vehicle generally labeled as exclusive rights to ownership. It is the exercising of these segments that has been curtailed and is no longer exclusive through an operation of law in the Unabomber's case. First in the violation of the rights of another person during the attempted exercising of a granted full (or segmented) right by one person. This is an unlawful act. Second, by the court sanctioned restitutions awarded to the victims in response to the unlawful act violating their rights. I cannot punch you in the face every time I exercise my right to make a copy of the work that I own. I might think I can because I don't believe you matter or that anyone will catch me. Nevertheless, you have the right not be punched in the face. Pretty soon my usurpation of your rights while attemting to exercise my rights comes back to haunt me in a legal determination saying that all that exercising in this manner has opened me up to liabilties inherently present in executing such unlawful acts at the same time as my exercising of rights. Its unlawful since your rights were violated in the process and execution of what I thought I had right to do in spite of fulfilling the requirements needed of me for ownership protections to be created... again ownership is not in doubt. During my sentencing, restitution is awarded to you, the victim, part of which now includes the transferring my previous right to make copies. This was done in hopes to teach me and society a moral lesson and so that you will get the money awarded to you faster (and without my usual skimming of the profits). Once paid off, I get the right back to make copies and you no longer have any further claim to the blockbuster movie based on my book, the lessons I learned and my wild time in jail coming out next summer.
 * Sorry for the trip to fantasy courtroom there, with such a poor excuse for an illustrative example of the nuances at play here, but I think you may get something out of it by framing the issue that way. As long as the lien exists he can't exercise his rights by design. If the victims wanted the money they'd push for selling and promoting all the works - not stifle it. The high amount insures he will most likely never be rewarded with making money off the victims pain and suffering - not that he intends or ever wanted to. The plea bargain let him live but not without consequence. A brilliant essay that is read by one person is called a "daily diary" not a manifesto of any sort -- and this is probably what bothers him more than any denial of dollars in the future ever could. I realize this state or resolution is impossible to attain by most measure so after-the-fact and with so much questionable internet saturation having already taken place in the interim. That doesn't mean we should be so flippant about hosting a work without considering the above implications and intentions both framed by the law as it stands today. The fact nobody will ever pursue this legally for either point of view (most likely) is also beside the point — George Orwell III ( talk ) 06:31, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep. He released it under a free license. If the new copyright owners can revoke that, then anyone can revoke any contribution they make under a free license. The legal principle we need to stand by is that free licenses are irrevokable. At the very least, we should wait until some positive action is made to revoke the license before taking action.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:37, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I also don't see the connection to his illegal actions being relevant. He had a right to release his document into the public domain; he was under no lien at the time. The fact that his attempt to get it published was illegal is irrelevant.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:40, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * He released something his very first victim and every victim therafter had a claim against by that time in his crime spree -- yes, making his ownership exclusive, as all creators of any work are by law, but his right granted under that ownership became non-exclusive, such as when attempting to exercise "placement", per an operation of law in the vehicle simply defined as a lien. The fact these particulars were later established and then became public knowledge afterwards does not change the fact his crimes introduced this liability far before the manifesto incident and he only thought his continued non-capture afforded him the right to waive his rights under ownership and place in public-domain. Too bad he got caught otherwise the annonymous nature of the work would still validate such a placement today, but those facts were never established as they are today. There are NO new copyright owners - only new copyright owner rights holders. He is, was and will forever be the "owner". Its the lien against the exercising of the rights granted to owners that has been curtailed. Its not as if the victims now can exercise these rights normally afforded to copyright owners by themselves either (not that they wish to - the money owed is symbolic not desired). For republication, derivative works, to place in PD, etc. -- both parties would need to consent to the action being exercised, as long as the amount awarded in the lien remains outstanding of course. That is the entire point of the plea bargain sparing his life when it sought to curtail this ability to "manipulate" all his works; be the action for free, to the public at large or for personal profit -- shown in an amount awarded in repirations he near certainly never could or would repay. If by some chance he does pay the outstanding amount, the rights typically granted to copyright owners returns to his exclusively and therefore becomes able to finally exercise them any way normally allowed. — George Orwell III ( talk ) 02:35, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not the way the law works; a victim doesn't have a lien against any property until a court says so. If your neighbor gives you his lawn mower, does it retroactively not become yours because the man turns out to have killed someone? A court takes from what someone has, not from what he has in good faith gotten rid of.--Prosfilaes (talk) 18:14, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * What "good faith" are you referring to? The part where the essay to follow was a product of collaborative contribution when it wasn't? The part where its signed "F.C." instead of his real name? The part where he imposes a timeline? or is it the part that threatens continued violence if dictated stipulations and caveats are not followed or met? I call bull-sh!t in advance on any notion answering these points qualify as creative in nature nor are part of any author's artistic license to spend. It is the degree of clear intent that is legally weighed in determining the validity when the exercising of rights, such as those in play here, are in question. It is convenient to ignore the context this search for intent can be found within and jump straight to a justification; citing a single written paragraph removed from context as proof of lawful waiver but if one goes by the legal weighing of intent in context (and with the added benefit of hindsight today), it doesn't matter what you, I or he thought was or was not being done "in good faith" - the facts today clearly demonstrate the intent was to misrepresent himself and his intentions while remaining a fugitive of the law/perpetrator of serious crimes in hopes someone would ignore all that and still publish the work - not because he genuinely no longer wanted any claim to the work as its author, liked using F.C. for a 'pen-name' or anything as innocent as well as allowable under the law as those may be. I am fairly sure misrepresenting oneself while exercising any right or entering into any transaction is an unlawful act in of itself; never mind when it's done alongside several more serious crimes, spanning several years, but also attempts to extort the furthering of this unlawful enterprise with additional warnings of further violence in the very same Context the attempted waiving of rights was hoped to be delivered validly in! This misrepresentation coupled within a larger frame of a series of unlawful acts makes me believe the legal threshold for what construes an acceptable waiving of owner/holder rights was never a valid one. The fact his later appeals included the return or release of his physical and/or intellectual properties despite agreement by plea bargained conviction in my view only supports the idea his intent, be it applied or perceived at the time, was not genuine but simply opportunistic when facing limited available courses and legal means to achieve the same state & status any normal law abiding citizen can do without such questions of validity or legality arising. George Orwell III (talk) 02:54, 10 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Again, there are thousands and thousands of uncaught murderers editing on Wikipedia. Do we have to delete all those edits because they are property of the victims who may not want to release them under a free license?--Prosfilaes (talk) 18:14, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * If you are certain that someone is wanted by law enforcement for committing some crime and actively know of his or her (electronic) whereabouts, I suggest you inform the appropriate authorities then legal as soon as possible.
 * Are we certain of the identity of the individual, the crimes committed, the plea-bargained conviction and the ordered restitution as it relates or pertains to this narrow discussion surrounding the single work in question or not? Therein lies the answer to your analogous question. George Orwell III (talk) 02:54, 10 May 2011 (UTC)


 * From a different perspective. Assume Kaczynski is the creator of a product, say a house (the copyright to his written works). He then sells or trades exclusive use of the house to you (victims and government), in exchange for something of value (his life in the plea bargain). The House is created from material owned by you (victims and government) which he never had had legal possession of (created as part of a crime).  What if he also posts to Craigslist an add offering the house to anyone who wants to use it for the any purpose and the house is overrun with visitors (Public Domain) . The crime is to the copyright as a materials lien is to the house, while he may be the creator, he has not yet secured full title.  He is not at liberty to sell or give away the copyright/lien until he has full ownership.  He has traded his interest in the copyright/lien to the lien holders/victims so that they may manage the property/copyright in order to recoup the value of their contributions to the projects/written work. Until such time as the lien is satisfied, Kaczynski is not at liberty to offer free access to the house/copyright, until such time as lien holders have collected sufficient rent to satisfy the lien. JeepdaySock (talk) 15:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * YES, thank you. I was begining to be more than a little taken aback that folks thought this is some Sam Clemens writing as Mark Twain or something as innocent as that and not a convicted killer who was impersonating a group of malcontents using the federal postal system to carry out their brand of domestic terror for over a decade. Yes, he is the orginal author and therefore the copyright owner but unfortunately Title 17 (U.S. copyright laws) does not exist alone in a vacuum, untouched by the 49 other titles that make up the entire U.S. Code. It is an instance where the legal solution finds a way to undo the insured copyright protections and rights bestowed upon on all authors in the narrow instance when a federal convicted criminal is in question. This case is particular clear since he signed away the these rights in the unconditional plea bargain - aiding in the operation of law in the form of restitution through a lien. Its not like they can do this to the everyday citizen author who hasn't blown anybody up in the process of creating a work. My God people, are you really saying copyright law is the supreme law of the United States -- no ifs, ands or buts?? — George Orwell III ( talk ) 17:49, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * He didn't blow up anyone up in the process of creating a work. This is not A Bucket of Blood here. Besides killing people, in a variety of ways, there are many ways of getting a lien on your property, including bankruptcy. I think it against our best interest to assume that courts can and will revoke a licensing agreement made prior to court proceedings in good faith, hurting secondary parties relying in good faith on that contract.--Prosfilaes (talk) 18:14, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * He could only sell or trade those rights he still had.--Prosfilaes (talk) 18:14, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * His crimes opened him, and his works, to the liability of others being able to lay claim to them. It is this liability eventually turned into restitution, begrudgingly if not willfully, signed into an agreement by him. There was no good faith whatsoever, as shown by his caveat of further deaths in his demand for publication and attempt to place into PD. Again, another narrow instance where an unlawful act undermines the normal application of law. Yes there are many ways a lien can be placed against your property, in this case intellectual property. One of them is to be spared the death penalty in return for all your property and rights as is the case here in this narrow instance. I think its in our best interests to follow the law no matter where it takes us. — George Orwell III ( talk ) 18:38, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * If he can agree here to overturn a free license, he can agree anywhere to overturn a free license. I'm happy to take the advice of the Creative Commons attorneys that he can't agree to remove the free license from his work.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:07, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * He never lawfully waived his rights as copyright owner, making the work lawfully free to any and all in the public domain, in the first place. Public Domain is a "negative space"; it only exists when legally recognized intellectual property owners and/or holders lawfully waive the rights and/or protections granted to them by and in the eyes of the law. "Placing" something in PD is a bit of a misconception because the term misrepresents what is really needed for any work to be free and clear of any claim or liability under the law. In order for the original 1995 waiving of copyright protections and rights by it's recognized author/owner at the time (known simply by the signature "F.C.") to still be clear and valid today, Teddy should never have admitted to being the sole creator of the work in spite of all the evidence found in his cabin to the contrary showing he, and he alone, was the creating author of the work. {{anchor|goodfaith}}The "good faith" shown to all such waivers of copyright, even to such unknown or unverifiable authorships, from some point in late 1995 to the day of his conviction in May 1998, solidified with that plea bargain he signed, became dissolved by an operation of law creating new (and lawful) rights by definition in the form of a lien (all-encompassing) that was court ordered as relief (victim restitution) on that same day. If you were lucky enough to publish the work between 1995 and 1998, you are the legal copyright holder of that derivative work free from any post or current lien liability as an actor in good faith at the period in time in question. That time is now gone and the right holder status has changed with it. Any further reproduction or derivatives after that May 1998 conviction date either needs a waiver by the current derivative holders (I assume mostly major newspapers published circa 1995 to 1998; and doubt any of them are willing to for en.WS purposes), both the lien holder victims and copryright owner Teddy together (not likely either but one can try) or I fear it is being done contrary to the operation of law here and, knowing what we know now, is far from acting in good-faith never mind in accordance with U.S. law and the Federal court rulings since as they currently stand. Simply, too much of a legal gray area to host in my view. -- George Orwell III (talk) 02:34, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

''# emphasis above mine. . .''  It can't be both for the work to wind up free and clear in the public domain can it?.
 * Keep. 1) Kaczynski always had and still has the copyright. 2) It is not disputed that he clearly expressed a firm intention that the works be placed in the public domain, going so far as to stipulate the date on which that should be the case. 3) That intention has not been rescinded, and 4) even if it had been after the fact of the work becoming public domain, that would have been without effect in that there is no ability of a copyright holder to rescind public domain status. Such status is irrevocable, as far as the copyright holder(s) are concerned. I imagine some governments may claim a right to rescind in law public domain status for, for example, national security or public safety reasons (i.e. to retroactively "classify" a work as secret), but the status of such a revocation is I believe legally uncertain. Even the scope of governing jurisdiction is unclear, because "the public" (who own a public-domain work) is a worldwide human population, and also the future extension of that global population. 5) It is probable that the current wikipedia status is not really a copyright dispute but an attempt for political and economic reasons to censor the work. Some parties may strongly disagree with the message in the work and thus wish to see it censored. Some may strongly object to the criminal acts surrounding and related to the production and publication of the work, and may wish to prevent that criminal activity being rewarded with famous public-domain status of the work. Others may justifiably want to see increased compensation payed to the victims of the criminal acts. While some of these arguments have "moral" merit, I believe the arguments have no legal bearing on the public domain status of the work, which is governed by simple intellectual property laws. Only in a distortion of the law for purposes of serving perceived moral balancing, i.e. a vigilante abuse of law, could legal rulings against the public domain status be produced.{{unsigned|142.232.74.81}}
 * I would venture that he still has the natural copyright by virtue of his having created the work, but that (while he did have the further right to act on his copyright) he has irrevocably waived his (or any subsequent copyright holder's) ability to place restrictions on copying, by stating the intention that the work be made public. In other words he himself had limited his future right to restrict copying, by making use of his copyright to limit the future form of operation of his copyright. Any subsequent restriction by a court of his right to exercise/act on the copyright is moot, since the exercising the right (in the form of declaring intent that it be public) had already happened before such a court restriction took effect. {{unsigned|142.232.74.81}}
 * I would wholeheartedly accept this premise had we still been under the impression the copyright owner and/or copyright rights holder(s) were still the anonymous, unattributed and unknown author or authors simply recognized by the original "mark", F.C., today. In that light and at that point in time, the intent to waive the normal rights and benefits granted to any such author could be viewed as lawful and proper for that instance because "we" did not nor could not associate the crimes in question, the liabilities the crimes introduced, the manner and legality of the author's intent perceived and all the rest of the particulars with a tangible, physically recognizable and commonly attributable individual of person. The point here is one of the facts and information that's come to be understood and accepted since that initial light and that point first in time. None of this could or would be a question today IF that status of unknown and unattributed authorship had remained anonymous and un-connectible to the crimes later prosecuted that introduced the liabilities in question now as it affects the status of copyright today. At the same time and for argument's sake, had the true authorship been established at that time as belonging to Ted Kaczynski, not F.C. &/or others in that "gang", his attempt to waive those rights might actually hold some legal water today in spite of the fact his actions before, during and after the publication of this and other works had or has introduced the right of his victims, by an operation of law, to lay claim against any and all of his property, including the intellectual, as part of the relief sought by them as a result of crimes committed against them -- but he didn't sign the work with his real name did he? Not that this bars the granting of rights and benefits of authorship under copyright law but it does muddy the question of how valid or lawful the attempt to waive those rights were and whether or not that exercise is still acceptable for hosting today here never mind recognized as lawful in the eyes of the law either way. Fast forward in time and we, as well as the courts, have come to establish there was no band of actors at work in authorship; just Kaczynski, and that F.C. and Kaczynski are one and the same sole author of the work. The logical result being the liability that always is introduced and exists when perpetuating illegal or unlawful acts, especially those against other people directly, previously enjoyed by being anonymous and unattributed as a known person vanishes once the work is later not only discovered thru the investigation but claimed as his work by Kaczynski himself. If the intent was ever true prior to that point of connection to the crime spree and the change in author status going from anonymous to attributed, he should have never admitted to being its author regardless of the evidence showing otherwise. Once he did, it was fair game to have a lien placed against it just like any other property is fair game when restitution is awarded to victims -- George Orwell III (talk) 20:25, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

 That would have been a valid assertion had he remained anonymous and on the run from his crimes. If his intent was to place it in the public domain and avoid any question, he should have made his true self known and waived his rights as the only creator/author of the work like hundreds & hundreds of people manage to do every day without any need for to make threats of violence against others in the process of hoping to increase readership or circulations of the work at the expense of others.  Any previous attempt to validate the author's "intent" have since been shown to be null and void by his own hand in addition to being superseded by an operation of law producing new rights and new right holders in the form of a lien both at once. None of this could have remained an issue today had he simply done the waiving of his rights and protections separate from further committing more Federally indictable crimes while remaining a Federal fugitive at large at the same time OR remained unassociated with being the sole author, sole rights-holder of the work. He couldn't manage keeping up with the first and he couldn't stop himself from taking credit for the second.  Yes, he may indeed still have all his rights, supporting the notion his intent was never about waiving anything or following through lawfully in the first place. He just can't exercise any of those rights today because months after being caught, he pretty much signed anything & everything away as part of a plea bargain to save his life. The deal secured his liability in the eyes of the court and opened his victims up to making their claim for relief as was negotiated in the form of court-ordered, civil-suit restitution. That lein remains largely outstanding this very day.  I am basing the above position in the statutes, laws and regulations of the United States of America and how they pertain to the continued operation of Wikisource by its membership under that law. Nothing more. Nothing less. You will not find anything in the US Copyright laws about "placing something in the public domain" because the public domain is a negative-space concept. One needs to lawfully waive all rights and protections afforded to such authors for their works to be lawfully recognized to be free and clear of all claims and liabilities resulting in the uninfringeable use of these works by any and all in the public at large who desires to do so. 
 * I believe this did not happen back then, we have the benefit of hindsight that's cleared many of the unknowns since and now have the foundations of legitimate legal concerns and/or jeopardy at hand. If the wish is to remain a credible and consistent free online resource I vote not to host this one unique instance created one particular individual justified by a narrow set of circumstances. There is no precedent being set here - just a correction of a previous oversight. -- George Orwell III (talk) 06:07, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Keep This text was released before the plea bargin/lien. Once something has been released it cannot be taken back (with the possible exception of an Act of Congress and even that is debatable)--Birgitte <font color="#CC99CC" size="2">SB  21:41, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Keep There is no copyright violation. Nobody even claims a copyright on it. This is just censorship of some offensive ideas. Schlafly (talk) 04:32, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Keep. There's no way that a court-ordered lein can be applied in such as way as to overturn the fundamental principle that intellectual property placed into the public domain must remain there. To the extent that it can be interpreted that way, it is merely poorly written and requires clarification from a higher court. Hesperian 01:25, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, finally starting to comprehend the counter-argument: that the document was never effectively placed into the public domain, because Kaczynski didn't have exclusive rights to it at the time. Hesperian 01:45, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Except that that kind of proposed retroactivity of lien would nullify the validity of any "closed" disposition of property done by a person who is subsequently convicted of a crime (which introduces liability.) Clearly that is infeasible. Consider the case where Alice murders someone, then sells her house to Bob. Then Alice is convicted of the murder. Then relatives of the murder victim sue Alice and Bob and try to recover the house from Bob. Not going to happen. And in the same way, you can't recover the "closed" disposition of the work as "public domain" retroactively. In the analogy, Bob is "the world's public" that has received the work in a closed transaction. You could recover from Alice the money made from the sale of the house, or from the unabomber any money made from the notoriety surrounding the events and the manifesto (e.g. movie royalties etc.) but you can't recover the public domain work from the public. {{unsigned|142.232.74.81}}
 * As long Alice signed the work as Alice not Betty in attempt to continue to remove possible liability from the work as well as to continue to remain a fugitive from the law -- then that makes complete sense. But the attempt to exercise the right is betrayed by the unlawful acts as well as not being genuine in using one's own name to remove any doubt of intent in addition to the possibility of others being able to lay claim to this and other properties thanks to said unlawful actions - making any exercise of copyholder right disengenous at best and fraudulent at worst but unlawful nevertheless. The use of F.C. was not done in the artistic sense as Mark Twain was to Sam Clemmons - it was done to continue to break the law while believing he still had uninfringeable rights at the time as the creator of a work in spite of the state of unlawful actions being undertaken. -- George Orwell III (talk) 23:28, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't buy this for a minute. An anonymous work is anonymous, dammit!  If F.C.'s release of the material can be ruled out after the fact, because you found out more about him and his motives for being anonymous, the same is true for any random Wikipedia account holder hiding behind an alias.  Which makes Wikipedia one big waste of time, a proprietary document just waiting to be announced as such!  I reject that - we must reject that utterly. Wnt (talk) 17:22, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The question of anonymity goes toward author's intent and that is the measure used to determine if a work can be considered lawfully waived of all author rights and/or benefits normally granted without question or limit by Copyright law in order for the work to be ultimately considered in the Public Domain for reuse. The understood condition that facilitates legally recognized copyright status upon creation is one where it is believed that no other claim or liability exists or were created preventing the lawful execution of those copyright rights and/or benefits granted to all authors. If an author uses large swaths of other authors' works (i.e. content ruled by the courts that is well beyond the definition of simple 'Fair Use') within a newly created work and then attempts to waive his or her Copyright law rights with the intent to have the work wind up in the Public Domain while also being free and clear of any and all claim and liability against said author or the new work, they are sorely mistaken. That is just an unlawful attempt as was the attempt in this case because it abused one of the understood 'good-faith' conditions where other standing laws and/or other individuals' secured rights are being violated. The statement or hope of what appears to be a clear and unambiguous intent by authors for their work to be lawfully considered Public Domain becomes moot when the condition of free and clear of all claim or liability does not exist at the same time. Just as those other hypothetical authors whose works where reproduced unlawfully without their permission introduces a claim against that new work and its author, retroactively invalidating any notion of the new work being free and clear for reuse by any and all in the Public Domain at the same time, so too is the case with this work albeit the liability of Kaczynski's criminal actions and an operation of law together introduced the claim against his works. Nevertheless, the condition of lawfulness or the lack thereof allows for the retroactive invalidation of assumed "placement" into Public Domain regardless of any apparent clear author intent displayed or not at the time. In addition to being an unlawful attempt at face value given the circumstances, in my view, the initial use of "F.C." also subverted any predisposed "good faith" the author or authors might have normally enjoyed in the attempt to have the work wind up in public domain because it was used more so to conceal any connection to crimes already committed as well as facilitate the continued state of being a fugitive from the law - both of which preventing the ascertainment of the work's true free & clear status; one where others may have a claim to its control (i.e. the courts, the victims, the government and so on.) - than "F.C." being used as some artistic choice, literary vehicle or storyline characteristic integral to the work. I wholeheartedly admit, there is no way to 1000% prove that subversive nature to avoid connection with the liabilities already introduced prior to that point in time indeed was at the core of the author's usage of a mark other than his/her given name, merely that the question is a valid one. Based on the timeline of events before, during and after the attempt to circulate the work via newspaper publication now known to date, the fact the validity of Public Domain status was never properly weighed and considered at the time because the belief that author anonymity was to be the permanent attribution as well as the basis not to question the lawfulness in the execution of the waiving of copyright holder rights and the eventual discovery dissolving the anonymity of authorship and subsequent association with Kaczynski, his crimes & their victims, his plea bargained deal with its ordered lien plus all the other nuances mentioned throughout make it impossible for me to look the other way and accept a simplistic view where "it was stated therefore it must be valid" rules the day in this matter. — George Orwell III (talk) 20:36, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * So if I understand this pile of text correctly, you're claiming that Kaczinsky was an "unperson" - that anything he said or wrote was pre-owned by someone else and therefore was censorable - because Kaczinsky had committed crimes, though he hadn't been convicted of them. So for example a news report that includes an interview of Kaczinsky should now be property of the auction winner, because the auctioneer sold off retroactively the copyright to what Kaczinsky said, so the media organization is left with a bogus title that doesn't entitle them to broadcast it any more.  I say this is completely bogus. Wnt (talk) 04:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * No, I don't believe you are getting the nuances involved at all. Starting with the first act in 1978 infringing upon that victim's rights and resulting in bodily harm and every similar act thereafter, opened Kaczynski to more and more liability both in the criminal and civil sense. Ownership is not the question - without rehashing everything said already; he created it so he's the owner. period. What does become limited is the ability for him to exercise rights such as waiving all that the copyright law afford ownership due to the liabilities he had accrued prior to creation. These exercises include the licensing of the work to others, granting permission for reproduction by others, consenting to the creation of derivative works AS WELL AS the waiving of all such rights and or benefits when attempting to make the work part of the public domain. Kaczynski needed to be free and clear of all claim or liability against him in order for the waiving of copyright rights and/or benefits to be lawful. The assumption by the law is that author's make such executions of their rights with the knowledge to the best of their reasonable ability that no other individuals right's are being violated in the process - that no others may have legitimate claim to or against the owner. This good faith by the law that the the author had waived his or her rights in good faith as well evaporated once the connection between Kaczynski's liability became tied to his holdings (i.e. property) part of which being the the ability to exercise the rights normally granted to owners/authors (i.e. intellectual property). The attempt at placement of the work into PD was only valid from late 1995 until 1998 (arguably the only period when valid state of good faith afforded by anonymity may have existed), so unless you happen to have acted on that good faith within that time period, like the newspapers did, you cannot be held further liable also being an actor in good faith at that time. We on en.WS did not host this work until well after that window closed and the plea bargained lien had taken effect. Kaczynski never had the right free and clear of any and all claim or liability against him to lawfully renounce his ownership rights in order for the work to be legally in the public domain by 1995. — George Orwell III (talk) 05:08, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * So you're saying that the publishers (the newspapers) hold copyright over a public domain work because they published it? This is directly contrary to the WMF's well known position on the PD-Art tag, where they say that we can freely copy any two-dimensional PD artwork right off a web page, even if someone else took the picture and put it up there under a copyright. Wnt (talk) 16:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Not at all. The newspapers technically are exempted for their reproduction of the work (typically a web page created circa 1995/97) from liability of the lien in place retroactively as a result of an operation of law. Granted this has not been tested to my knowledge in the courts - I've come to this conclusion based on looking for any newspaper (re)creating the work post 1998 and I could not. Everything that's remotely manifesto associated with a publication of the day, as far as online publication went that is, does not have an edit or creation date after Kaczynski's plea-bargain date (or thereabouts). I'm not a lawyer by any measure so you can take that for what its worth. I tried to run down the facts to ground soon after this thread took off and that's what I found. What those newspapers can or cannot do isn't really a basis that can translate to what en.WS should or could do imho either. What I think you are describing is a case where a "line-art" rendering of a more "robust" image skirts the boundaries of fair-use and may pass for acceptable for hosting without violation of copyright but that is in entirely other issue than the one at hand. — George Orwell III (talk) 18:03, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I am very relieved indeed that you are not a lawyer - hopefully this attack on the public domain is purely illusory. Wnt (talk) 21:42, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I should add that Wikipedia is no different - some people are logged in under aliases because they're fugitives, or they're illegal immigrants, or because they're logging in from work against the employer's internet Terms of Use, etc. We must oppose this doctrine in every case. Wnt (talk) 04:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Apples to oranges. You're taking privacy concerns & terms of service as a means to justify criminality (or at the very least, knowingly condoning unlawful acts) and the liability such actions inherently come with be it taking place on WikiThis or WikiThat, etc. — George Orwell III (talk) 05:08, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Aaron Swartz is being told that violating a TOS is just like felony hacking. Besides, you're not claiming criminal law here is censoring the work - you're saying Kaczinsky owed some sort of civil liability.  Anybody who is falling victim to the credit card vultures owes civil liability. Wnt (talk) 16:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't speak to that situation but yes, Kaczynski's unlawful attempt to waive his copyright granted rights followed by his agreement to a plea bargain where any further attempt to execute copyright holder's rights became limited by the lien against all his holdings as part of the court ordered restitution for the named victims is now more a civil matter than criminal. The auction of his physical property merely allowed the government to liquidate the items in their possession rather than be forced to hold or allow Kaczynski access to them again. The lien in place helped facilitate the idea of an auction but by no means was the end of the auction the same as satisfying the lien. — George Orwell III (talk) 18:03, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep. The ruling plainly states that "The current Plan...is strictly limited to the physical originals of the documents previously seized from Kaczynski's cabin." Conjecture to the contrary should be understood as just that: conjecture, in direct contradiction to the direct and explicit terms of the ruling.


 * George Orwell III asserts that the auction of said physical originals is only "one of many parts of the effort to satisfy the outstanding amount that was ordered". If part of that effort actually includes a transfer of intellectual property rights it should be a simple matter to quote it.


 * He is profoundly mistaken if he thinks that transfer is "clearly (re)stated in the 2009 ruling quoted above". Said ruling is exclusively concerned with establishing the government's authority to execute the auction "Plan" as explicitly defined by the initial order - not with defining the Plan's scope. Kaczynski challenged their authority on three separate grounds and the Court shot him down. The passage George Orwell III quotes ("The restitution lien statute...") establishes the government's broad authority to execute said Plan - it establishes that the lien "<I>may</I> be enforced against all property and property rights" (emphasis added), not that it <I>must be</I> enforced against all property and property rights. The court establishes this to demonstrate that, as the passage concludes, "Kaczynski's facial challenge must fail". At issue, again, is Kaczynski's appeal challenging the Plan, not the scope of the plan or defining some additional "effort to satisfy the outstanding amount that was ordered."


 * As far as I can tell, the rights to this work are only in "a legal state of flux" in the sense that someone misunderstood, in a pretty basic way, the question at issue in the appeal he is quoting from. Perhaps if we could at least see a reference to someone else making this specific argument - not someone saying something that may or may not imply this argument, but some authority specifically and explicitly claiming that this work is no longer in the public domain - it would be worth giving a second thought. As it stands, I think the "conservative" assumption is that Time Magazine's lawyers are probably on top of things. Esaugladstone (talk) 03:40, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

{{outdent talk|:::}} 416 F.3d 971 (2005) <tt>FACTS & PROCEDURAL HISTORY</tt>
 * <tt>. . . Kaczynski was sentenced to life in prison, and ordered to pay restitution to the specifically identified victims of his crimes in the amount of $15,026,000. Upon the entry of judgment of conviction, a lien arose in favor of the government on all of Kaczynski's property and rights to property, which will last until his restitution debt is satisfied.</tt> 18 U.S.C. § 3613(c).


 * all means all (I don't think a link is needed to define 'all', right?)
 * property means Corporeal property
 * rights to property means Incorporeal property


 * Again, it was unfortunate that the auction of physical or corporeal property was introduced prior to making it clear that it was only half or part of the entire issue at hand which is the lien. As quoted & linked directly above; basically the lien goes against any & all types of property no matter how one tries to parse the term. It is understood that transfer of ownership of said intellectual property is not the question -- That kind transfer by its inherit physical nature alone can only pertain to tangible items and thus he had issues with the Auction or its plan (not relevant). It is implied that Kaczynski may indeed still retain ownership here as well, as do all authors upon the creation of their works, but its the ability or inability to exercise the rights granted to such "owners" as a new rights holder, not as an owner granted some rights, that is in question. Being an owner of an incorporeal property such a copyright is worthless in every sense of the word if one cannot actually exercise any of the rights normally granted to such authorship when free and clear of all limit or liability. His victims, by an operation of law as a result of a plea-bargain induced order of restitution in the form of a lien, have a claim against those 'rights to property'. This does not give the named victims the right to exercise any of those normally granted rights either; that was not the point in the award. The point was to curtail any change in possible or realized valuation and/or notoriety that may or may not come with any of his works - physical or otherwise. On top of this, there is still the possible matter pertaining to un-named vitims and so on yet to be ruled on (if need be) if the named victims' award in force is somehow circumvented or satisfied, Finally your point on Time hosting a 1997-created CNN web page was covered earlier and falls between the cracks of someone who used the mark "F.C." in an attempt to waive rights he/she neither claimed outright then renounced in a normal nor lawful manner (but in general is allowed for in "good faith" & all things being equal at that momment) and the point in time when actual attribution of authorship became associated with and then legally tied to Kaczynski's hand. Wikisource did not host this work during that period between the two points in time where a case can be made to justify the continued hosting of it today also as an actor in good faith back then; CNN and Time did (re)produce the work during that period based on that same assumption of good faith so they can't be held liable or in conflict with the rulings as they stand today. What's worse is this the continued belief we are justified in spite of all that has come to light since and the notion this would somehow constitute a precedent instead of a single isolated case of less than optimal oversight with exceptional circumstances surrounding the matter and in play over time. — George Orwell III (talk) 07:39, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Auction

 * Not sure it adds anything to this discussion but it is related. An auction for several of Kaczynski's items closed Thursday Jun 2, 2011. It included some 40,000 pages of documents which had been censored (victims names removed) Sold: the bomb-making tools of Theodore Kaczynski; The Seattle Times Company; published June 2, 2011 at 12:13 PM  Page modified June 3, 2011 at 6:21 AM.  JeepdaySock (talk) 15:29, 3 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The auction satisfies the notion that the government cannot hold property gathered during their investigation and prosecution beyond a reasonable amount of time once a conviction has been secured & runs the appeal process (now over). Since a lien is still in place against all Kaczynski properties, physical, intellectual or otherwise, and an amount in the millions of dollars remains outstanding as well, rather than returning those items to Kaczynski only to have them removed again this time by civil rather than criminal court proceedings, the government came up with this auction solution where the money made goes directly towards making a dent in the awarded restitution amount still owed to his victims.


 * No real bearing on the matter discussed above other than reinforcing the point that in this one narrow instance & only under these unique circumstances, an author's liability, introduced by acting in concert with and ending in the conviction of criminal acts, allows for an operation of law to lay new rights and new claims by the victims of those crimes against this paarticular author, superseding the ability of said author from exercising his rights and protections normal granted under copyright law now, when lawfully recognized, without question; mostly thanks to his unlawful attempt to exercise those same rights before he was caught and identified as the sole author, revealing the dubious nature of his proclaimed intent, back then. -- George Orwell III (talk) 16:30, 3 June 2011 (UTC)


 * But in this case they explicitly did not claim seizure of his copyrights, only the physical items. I read that at some point; it came up during Kaczynski's suit to prevent the sale of those items.  Carl Lindberg (talk) 06:10, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * You can't "seize" intellectual property - only prevent the exercising of the rights and/or protections afforded to the copyright holders under the authorship - rights which he now shares with his victims until the outstanding amount is satisfied (i.e. never). A copyright owner who cannot exercise any of his or her rights as a copyright holder means that you get properly attributed as the creator and owner but does little else in the way of usefulness or worth for the owner. He is still technically the copyright owner but without payment of restitution in full or by mutual consent with the victims, he can't even give those rights and/or protections granted to most other authors who are not confronted by this predicament away for free. The same holds true for the victims; they can't simply exercise any of the rights and protections normally afforded rights holders without his consent (not likely to ever happen either). That perpetual tug-of-war imposed by the lien was partially the court's intent behind the plea bargain along with the awarding of restitution in the first place -- to make his works impotent and unavailable via that operation of law.
 * All appropriate physical items are being auctioned off btw. They were a slightly different matter than blocking any possible gain in his or his work' notoriety, etc., because those items were originally taken as evidence not restitution. All the remaining inappropriate items are kept by the Bureau of Prisons in holding since convicts typically don't have rights to access such items under normal circumstances never mind in the Unabomber's case. -- George Orwell III (talk) 07:03, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Really, the court's intent with the "perpetual tug-of-war" was "to make his works impotent and unavailable"? In other words, the court was imposing censorship, and helping the victims was just a pretext? I don't think the court has stated that anywhere, and I don't think it would be legal in any case. Copyright is not supposed to be used to enforce censorship either in general or on Wikisource in particular.--91.148.159.4 17:35, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The court was, and still is, only acting in lieu of the plea bargain - remember, there was no trial, no jury; only Kazcynski's signature agreeing to all this in order to spare him the the death sentence surely to come otherwise - and the courts merely act as the trustee for the named victims and their wishes, not the government's (well maybe in the sense this resolution was less time and cost consuming they also wished it I guess). You are absolutely right that the suspension of rights, what you called censorship in this case, is unconstitutional when committed by the government against the individual normally, but the plea-bargained lien was primarily done as relief for the named victims as well as well as to avoid action on the part of the un-named victims (i.e. the community-at-large as a servicee of the Federal Postal system as run by the Government both of which that would have also had standing in the courts as victims of Kazcynski's crimes had the case gone to a jury trial). Rights curtailed in this manner as relief order as a result of a plea bargain is not unconstitutional nor all that uncommon. The convicted chronic drunk driver's car won't start unless he/she blows into a breathalyzer first; the multiple conviction burglar must wear an ankle bracelet to track his or her movements for example - both done in the name of protecting in advance of or reassuring after the fact the community-at-large's wishes or standing in criminal matters. Once again, this is an extremely unique set of circumstances beside the most glaring one where somebody engaged in such activity actually had something possibly worthwhile to say. Because of all these particular nuances, I do not think removal of this work constitutes setting of any sort of en.WS precedent, practice or policy (although recent events surrounding the Norway bombing of July 2011 might go to these same unresolved questions we face here one day in the future - and this time there will be no benefit of well-intentioned but somewhat clueless acting in good faith here on en.WS ahead of that debate I'm afraid). — George Orwell III (talk) 20:01, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * This is irrelevant: the point is that Ted Kaczynski had no power to bargain away our right to reproduce public domain material. Wnt (talk) 21:36, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, "an author's liability...allows for an operation of law to lay new rights and new claims by the victims of those crimes against this paarticular author". <I>Allows.</I> And this auction demonstrates that this operation was allowed with regard to the physical items auctioned. It does not, however, "reinforce" that this operation was allowed with respect to intellectual property rights. At the most the auction demonstrates that it was allowed with respect to Kaczynski's manuscripts, which we all agree were ordered to be auctioned. Esaugladstone (talk) 04:04, 17 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I will graciously work on this when/if this becomes clearly PD, but I never pictured Wikisource being the cutting edge for fringe PD publications; rather, like, the safest place imaginable as far as what belongs here and not. At this point, I think we have said all there is to say; let's approach someone whose field is at minimum, law-related (sorry to assume that none of you are lawyers...) Does anyone know anybody like this? I have met a lawyer at some wiki-meetups who I think is on arbcom at en.wp; it that a route (outsourcing this) anyone is interested in taking? - Theornamentalist (talk) 13:28, 7 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep and restore now!. It needs to be a bedrock position for Wikimedians of all stripes that once an item is released to the public domain or a free license, it can't be sold or seized back out of it.  This issue has become relevant because Anders Breivik's "2083 - A European Declaration of Independence" incorporates it, and people are arguing for deletion of free images of Breivik based on that his manifesto included this manifesto so he must be a Copyright Thief.  Stamp this out now!  The auction is over, and I don't believe the newspapers that published the manifesto have gone back and cut it out of their archives as a copyright violation.  I don't believe that the people publishing "2083' now are violating the copyright of some auctioneer.  The unpublished documents for which no actual release was made may be another issue worthy of legal debating either way (though I would not condone this method of backdoor censorship in any case), but this debate should be closed. Wnt (talk) 17:14, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Considering the plenty of other licence violations by Anders, it's a moot point when it comes to him. Nil Einne (talk) 21:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep - and end this nonsensical descent into irrelevant semantics immediately! Putting aside all relative legal issues regarding public domain rights--or their alleged absence--of the material in question, all those who value their rights as human beings with brains to maintain and defend any opinion, ever, in any public forum, anywhere, must instead address to completion that one question which all of this useless ambiguity exists only to obfuscate: even in the presence of obvious pretext in its presentation, can any knowledge ever be harmful without first being tainted by dangerous context? The answer is a resounding NO. The spirit of all law, as we know it, has only ever been conceived and intended to serve as a form of temperate middle ground toward which all human philosophical dissonance inevitably migrates... and is placed in suspended animation. Laws are not intended to resolve dilemmas of any kind. The purpose of any law is merely that of a warning bell, meant to draw attention to the fact that a resolution is necessary; to prevent degeneration into further disorder in the midst of conflict. Obviously, this minor detail has been lost to most, as the rich have learned to grow richer by exploiting society's good-faith vulnerability to the pretense of "preservation" and "justice" - and at the mere expense of actual fundamental freedoms everywhere. Have none of you read the publication--deliberate word choice, by the by--in question? The irony of this situation is grossly undeniable, and from an intellectual perspective, is in all other ways simply gross. To ignore the greater purpose of the spirit of the laws in question would be tantamount to violating them ALL outright just for the sake of doing so. This entire "discussion" smacks grossly of Good Ol' Boy-ism: debating the "appropriate" exercise of power simply for the sake of exercising power, when all that's either needed or warranted is often just the common sense to do nothing at all. Where is the devil's advocate here? I only see a swarm of vultures struggling vainly to peck the life out of an idea - which is the one thing born of human effort that can never be killed. What terrible, terrible irony...


 * This closure seems like a conflict of interest, since the admin making the deletion is the one vigorously arguing for it. The legal argument for deletion is disputed and may be unsound, as it has not (AFAIK) ever been tested by the courts, and actual consensus seems to be keep (something like 7-8 keep 3-4 delete).--T. Mazzei (talk) 01:24, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * OK its unclosed. I was just trying to keep up with my housekeeping was all. I don't think anyone has had a leg to stand on with this isolated case so far but if some folks feel otherwise I'm in no rush not hear them out. -- George Orwell III (talk) 02:45, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't necessarily disagree with delete, but it did not seem like there was either a clear consensus or an overwhelming legal argument for delete. With respect to the legalities: I find the argument that the document was not really placed in the public domain somewhat unconvincing. And if the document was in the public domain at the time of the lien, then I don't think a lien can bring it back out.--T. Mazzei (talk) 03:46, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well it seems you are still under the impression that one places something into the Public Domain and that is that. There is no such thing as Public Domain by any legal measure; its not defined anywhere in the law its not mentioned in the law - nada.
 * There is, however, copyright owners and copyright rights holders. In order for anything to wind up in the negative space we call Public Domain, one must lawfully waive all rights and benefits afforded to them by law and, to the best of their knowledge, are free and clear of all claim or liability.
 * In this case the liability was always there - years before the work was created - therefore he was not acting in good-faith when making the attempt to waive copyright holder rights. His intent may have been clear but this is never in question because the attempt was invalid or unlawful to begin with.
 * All the lien did is shut down the possibibility of any further reproduction/derivatives and the chance for Ted to ever properly waive his rights now that the question of free & clear or good faith has been superseeded by the plea bargain and conviction. All this is an exception & not a rule of thumb btw. The operation of law creating new rights is cited in the United States Code at the top. -- George Orwell III (talk) 23:51, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I fully understand that a document enters public domain after all existing rights are expired or given up. In this case the copyright holder did so very publicly. I find the argument of "pre-existing liability" unconvincing. Does this supposed "pre-existing liability" apply exclusively to copyright and not to any of the other real or incorporeal property which he has presumably divested himself of between his crimes and his conviction? If so, why? if not, then logically if a criminal (for example) sells his car between the commission of a crime and his conviction, then the government could seize the vehicle for payment of a lien on the grounds that he had a pre-existing liability, and therefor the sale was unlawful. I don't think this is the case.--T. Mazzei (talk) 00:55, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Was the car part of the attempt to remain a fugative of the law, further an ongoing crime spree or was threatened to run people over with it if he didn't get his way by newspaper publication? -- George Orwell III (talk) 01:52, 19 October 2011 (UTC).
 * Even so, could the gov't seize the car (no longer in his possession), for payment of a lien? I don't believe so.--T. Mazzei (talk) 03:28, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * But it wasn't seized for a lien - it was seized as evidence just like everything else remotely related to the crimes might have been. That is the reason the physical items siezed not directly related to his crimes & subsequent prosecution had to go up for auction rather than returned to the individual as they normally would. There was also a window where the good faith of copyright applied.... and Time magazine and CNN took advantage of it - also acting under belief of good faith was still at play. The problem is we are repoducing it circa 2005 & not circa 1999 when the window arguably existed. I'm not saying it completely stinks but that is what the courts came up with and to try and squeeze it in now is anything but in line with the court rulings never mind in the spirit of "good-faith". The car analogy is misleading because the car plays no role in any crime spree but would have been put up for auction if it was still in his possession at the time of his capture. Had the car been used in some aspect of a crime and getting rid of it helped lower the evidence (lower the liability in the criminal's mind) against proving the crime - you can safely bet the courts can still seize it even if it was sold "correctly" under the laws that dictate such sales. -- George Orwell III (talk) 06:12, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't believe you considered its role in relation to the crimes and the inherent liability such crimes introduce since in 99.9% of the possible similar cases out there never we get past the point of annonymity (See the Zodiac Cipher instance somewhere above on this Copyright Violation page for example). We frequently rely on the fact the person is a criminal and therefore will never come along to exercise (or renounce) his authorship rights or the fact that the victims of such crimes wish to avoid further confrontation and do not seek retribution. That is not the case here where we have a defined set of "named" victims who, as part of a plea bargain, were included in the ruling(s) in order to satisfy their desire for some sort of resitution in spite of the lack of a death penalty being sought. -- George Orwell III (talk) 01:52, 19 October 2011 (UTC).
 * But by the logic of "pre-existing liability", no writing by a criminal (post-crime) can be considered public domain. You seem to be arguing "we can reproduce clearly copyrighted work because we're unlikely to get called on it"--T. Mazzei (talk) 03:28, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well that is the problem when it comes to WS hosting and manifestos in general. The very nature of a manifesto normally means it is not in compliance with some aspect of the law and, therefore, means some sort of liability is likely to exist at the same time as well. The idea that we can host these works that exist in this limbo has never been properly addressed as far my searching of WS histories can best tell. In fact, the idea that we can "get away with hosting it" because it is unlikely the "real" parties will never step forward thanks to some crime or other unlawful act has been floated here more than once. Here is one single, narrow instance where the courts stepped in via an operation of law to place new rights with the victims that we don't normally see happen in such questionable cases. I believe this action makes this instance unique and subject to facing up to what normally is brushed under the rug as "who cares... its not like he/she is going to go to court to challenge us". -- George Orwell III (talk) 06:12, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * As I've said before, if he wanted to honor the intent all unknown author's normally recieve as part of the good faith inferred to in copyright law, he should have denied any connection to being F.C. regardless of the court's connection to him. Also, ownership has not been stripped from Ted in the lien, merely the right to exercise any of the copyright holder rights afforded to copyright owners by the operation of law giving the victims a say (or neh) in whatever the future may or may not bring for the work(s) in question. -- George Orwell III (talk) 01:52, 19 October 2011 (UTC).
 * That he still has "ownership" (whatever that means) is beside the point since it is, as far as I can tell, an empty title. The lien could (I suppose) have stripped him of "ownership". The lien could not strip him of copyright since he no longer possessed it.--T. Mazzei (talk) 03:28, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Nope. The Constitution basically insures he is the owner no matter what. You are correct, however, that the ability to exercise his rights as the owner has been legally circumvented due in part to his mis-handling of proper waiving of rights to begin with. For example, had he used his real name in spite of it giving himself up to the law at the time, this could not have taken place in regards to this work. The idea that claiming a larger group was behind the authorship of the work was not some quiant literary device integral to plot development or something similar to that. This is why intent is the measure by which the law deems the validity of waiving of rights. Yes, his intent was clearly worded at face value but his own desire to remain free betrayed the good faith of copyright law and the inherent liability created by such actions. We have come to know the details since and he even agreed to as much by accepting the plea bargain in return for not seeking the death penalty. -- George Orwell III (talk) 06:12, 19 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment (I'm not sure where the appropriate place in the thread is anymore, this is not limited to the Auction). I am unfamiliar with the timeline and do not see it clearly stated, I do not have time to research it.  However, GO3's arguments are not legally unsound; I know that's effectively a double negative, but as some have pointed out there are no cases on point than anyone here can identify (maybe someone who's being paid to do so can check Westlaw or Lexis to be sure).  Generally, I see no reason that if an operation of law stripped the creator of his right to transfer, a court couldn't easily void or rescind any attempted transfer, including a dedication to the public domain; particularly if the rights were perceived to have any value (and the right to prohibit publication likely has some value to the victims at least).  Furthermore, once you know or should know that there are claims against you and you transfer property for substantially less than fair market value, you risk the transfer being deemed fraudulent in a civil action or bankruptcy.  Fraudulent transfers can be undone.  Normally only bona fide purchasers for value without notice are protected at all; the public is not a bona fide purchaser for value without notice.  The above suggests that we are both a purported recipient of a gift (dedication), that is an attempted transaction for which there is no consideration, and that we are on notice to a degree.  There may be cases in which the public interest is given greater weight than that; I am unaware of them (and I haven't actively looked).  Again, I don't know the timelines and that could affect the answer.  I don't really think this merits the effort it would require for the WMF counsel to give an opinion.  The ideas in favor of keeping seem to largely rely on the public domain being sacrosanct.  As Hesperian notes, the problem here is that the dedication itself may be void or voidable ab initio.  Although we could leave this up and wait for action by the Government or a private lawsuit by one or more victims against the Foundation or the editors who have posted the article, I question whether any of us would want that exposure.  I am generally aggressive on copyright but I don't see the cost-benefit here as particularly attractive; though that's a personal assessment.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 07:30, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * ...and my apologies for the confusion - I wish the "auction" portion had never taken the forefront as it did either. To add, I want to stress that this is one narrow and exceptionally unique case that in no way should be thought to influence the status of other "similar" works where "crime" has played a role. It is the action taken in part by the courts afterward that has made this a different case for consideration whether to host or not. The span of several years for court proceedings to "end" did not help to illustrate the points of contention as well. I wonder where all this would be if law enforcement decided to sit on the letter rather than allow the papers to run it publically. -- George Orwell III (talk) 09:58, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

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 * delete - I would like to argue further, but at this point it would be more out of devil's advocacy than actual belief that the work is free and clear.--T. Mazzei (talk) 07:56, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

On some controversies regarding origin and nationality of Nezami Ganjavi
=Other=