Wikisource:Copyright discussions/Archives/2010-12

=Kept=

State of the Nation Address 2010 by President Jacob Zuma
Can we take this as a decision that it can be tagged with PD-EdictGov, so that the situation is clear for the future? - Htonl (talk) 08:14, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Queen Elizabeth II's Remarks to the people of the United States
=Deleted=

Author:Robert_Ervin_Howard/Letters
{{closed|1=delete|text= I'm open to good sourcing, but the copyright on the letters run from first general publication. I don't know when they were first published exactly, but it had to be after Howard achieved his fame; if it was after 1963, they wouldn't have needed a renewal. In the unlikely case they were first published after 2002, they'll be under life+70 and hence out of copyright since 2006. In any case, we need sources.--Prosfilaes (talk) 05:25, 30 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Note that I don't contest those letters that were published near the time of writing.--Prosfilaes (talk) 05:29, 30 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Oof, that is a mess. As you note, anything first published prior to 1989 would have needed a copyright notice, and anything published before 1964 would have needed a renewal.  Stuff published 2002 or before may well be copyrighted.  One complicating matter is if the publications were done with permission -- if permission was not sought from rightsholders, that would not count as true publication, and they could still be "unpublished" (and thus PD by 70pma) today.   I did come across this book, which actually lists the works publishing each of his individual letters (or at least a tone of them).  There was a 1989 volume of Selected Letters, though there are definitely some which first came out in some 2007 books (not sure if we have any of those here though).   The preface of that book also gives some details on who the rightsholders were -- kinda messy.   But, that book (not all of which is viewable on Google Books) does give the provenance of a great many letters, so the status of many could be much better determined (and sources given).  Carl Lindberg (talk) 18:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I have that book. I'll try to add more information when I can.  Note that the author of the book, Paul Herman, wrote this article, listing all of Howard's public domain works, which is what I used to add the red links to this page.  It doesn't actually say why idividual works are public domain but most of the letters appear to have been "previously unpublished" as of 2007.  I'll try to work out the details from both book and article. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 12:55, 9 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, this took a while; my home computer has been having problems. I've added publication dates based on the book The Neverending Hunt and the website HowardWorks. I've deleted some of the unreferenced red links and added copyvio templates to some of the already existing works which I think may not be public domain. These are listed here to keep everything in one place. There may be a few more to add to these. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 20:55, 17 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The Howard Collector #5 & #7 have been explicitly renewed (even if it wasn't a legal requirement), and baring other evidence, we have to assume the later ones were at least copyrighted. Everything first published in that Swedish publication is fair game.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:59, 17 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The other 2002 and earlier letters are out, but the rest of the 21st century stuff should be fine.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:22, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I've removed some more links, including those to the letters listed below. Is this OK now?  What is the policy for the letters that were partially published before 2006 and fully published afterwards? - AdamBMorgan (talk) 11:42, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * When we're talking about "partially published", how much are we talking about? If it's a couple sentences, I'd be tempted to mumble something about fair use and subcopyrightable and let it pass; if it's like a page, that's not going to fly. We could keep the parts not previously published, I guess.--Prosfilaes (talk) 03:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I've deleted all those following, as seemingly not under dispute.--Prosfilaes (talk) 03:54, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

June 1, 1934, to R. H. Barlow
This letter was first published in The Howard Collector #18 (Fall 1973) and it is not listed in Paul Herman's list of public domain letters. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

June 14, 1934, to R. H. Barlow
This letter was first published in The Howard Collector #18 (Fall 1973) and it is not listed in Paul Herman's list of public domain letters. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

July 1933, to August Derleth
This letter was first published in The Howard Collector #15 (Fall 1971) and it is not listed in Paul Herman's list of public domain letters. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

May 9, 1936 to August Derleth
This letter was first published in The Howard Collector #5 (Summer 1964) and it is not listed in Paul Herman's list of public domain letters. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

July 1933, to H. P. Lovecraft
This letter was first published in The Howard Collector #15 (Fall 1971) and it is not listed in Paul Herman's list of public domain letters. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

July 23, 1935, to Clark Ashton Smith
This letter was first published in The Howard Collector #11 (Spring 1969) and it is not listed in Paul Herman's list of public domain letters. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

March 15, 1933, to Clark Ashton Smith
This letter was first published in The Howard Collector #5 (Summer 1964) and it is not listed in Paul Herman's list of public domain letters. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

May 6, 1935, to Farnsworth Wright
This letter was first published in The Howard Collector #9 (Spring 1967) and it is not listed in Paul Herman's list of public domain letters. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

December 17, 1934, to Emil Petaja
This letter was first published in The Howard Collector #7 (Winter 1965) and it is not listed in Paul Herman's list of public domain letters. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC) }}

File:Adil Profile.png
=Other=

List of Countries Where Politicians' Speeches are Copyright-Free
{{closed|text= Given the discussions above. I would like us to prepare a simple list like the above. It should be concerned only with the speeches of politicians (as if it tries to cover too many matters, it will become, inevitably, a very complicated list and hard to decipher and we will be back in the original position - there is already huge amounts of information about what is and what is not copyright free for each country...It is hard to decipher the copyright position. For example, I interpret the gudiance on WikiSource concerning Taiwan copyright rules to mean that a speech by a Taiwan politician is not copyright protected and can be hosted on this Website.  User Billinghurst appears to disagree. What is the position? Any help with this list would be appreciated. These are the frist few countries that require urgent clarification. Feel free to chip in other countries where you know the position. Thanks Formosa (talk) 18:01, 10 April 2010 (UTC):

The List
List of Countries Where Politicians' Speeches are Copyright-Free:

[Suggestion to Reader: Add other countries where you know the position]
 * Iran
 * USA (Federal politicians only);

Position requires clarification:
 * France?
 * Ireland? -"The [2000 Copyright and Related Rights] Act also clarifies provisions relating to Government copyright, which will apply to works made under the direction or control of the Government, and which will subsist for 50 years following the creation of the work concerned." ]  2000 Copyright and Related Rights Act Information Note.  Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Copyright and Related Rights Section, Intellectual Property Unit, Ireland.  (March 2001).
 * United Kingdom: Controlled by Crown copyright ResScholar (talk) 05:54, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Taiwan?

The List & Taiwan
I think Taiwan should be listed with the USA and Iran because the WikiSource Guidance says: "Works ineligible for copyright in Taiwan The constitution, acts, regulations, official documents (including proclamations, text of speeches, news releases, and other documents prepared by civil servants in the course of carrying out their duties), and their translations and compilations by central or local government agencies. ". What do others think? Formosa (talk) 18:04, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps this discussion should take place at multilingual Wikisource, where the expertise of other Wikisources can be drawn together. ResScholar (talk) 05:52, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * If by "politician" you mean "government employee" I think I understand what you are trying to do. But why don't you dispense with the levels of abstraction you have adopted in your disagreement with Billinghurst, and say what problems you are having licensing the works you would like to present?  For instance, what Wikisource guide are you talking about, and what does it have to do with your license requirements? ResScholar (talk) 06:12, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I would support reviewing the approach to copyright issues surrounding Taiwan, as the words used in the template could do with clarification, especially as this page has a difference and may be better wording. Having better documentation and clarification to support these matters would be useful to all. I would prefer such an approach rather than trying to clump it with anything. — billinghurst  sDrewth  07:21, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Re "But why don't you dispense with the levels of abstraction you have adopted in your disagreement with Billinghurst, and say what problems you are having licensing the works you would like to present?" I do not think i could have been any clearer. I would like to put a list together of the countries where politicians' (elected politicians to be even clearer) are copyright free. If the expertise does not exist here (or the will-power), that is a pity but there is nothing abstract or unclear about the idea. Formosa (talk) 14:00, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Billinghurst - Could I nominate you to do the review of the Taiwan copyright position. Given that I wanted to put up President Ma's speech, if I opined on the Taiwan copyright position, I might be accused of bias. You could then let us know if speeches by Taiwan elected politicians can be hosted on this website. In hope of a positive response - Thanks! Formosa (talk) 14:09, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * User ResScholar - Thank you for adding that elected politicians speeches in the UK are protected by Crown Copyright. I take it that means we cannot host them on this website. Can you confirm if I am correct? (I wasn't too sure what the implications of the words "Crown Copyright" are).Formosa (talk) 14:32, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Billinghurst - Assuming ResScholar confirms that elected politicans speeches (made within the usual timeframes etc) are not copyright free and cannot generally, be hosted on this website, could I ask you to delete Margaret Thatcher's speech (discussed above). I would but I am not an Admin and I think you are. Thanks. Formosa (talk) 14:32, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

ResScholar - I would add that for me the List I am talking about would be very useful. I like politics so I lean towards politicans speeches etc as things to put up here on WikiSource...So this is all a very practical matter for me. When I say politicians, I am happy for that to exclude any one who is not elected. Thanks. Formosa (talk) 14:37, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree including Taiwan in a "List of Countries Where Politicians' Speeches are Copyright-Free" after critically reading Article 9 of the Copyright Act (Republic of China). Make sure that civil servants in the course of carrying out their duties have made them. If you have any doubt, ask me as your only Chinese-speaking administrator here.--Jusjih (talk) 01:47, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Jusjih - Many thanks for your assistance. I appreciate it. Given your conclusion that you think Taiwan can be included on the List, please could you have a look at: The Quest for Modernity. That is an article containing a speech by ROC President Ma Ying-Jeou. User: Billinghurst (Administrator) deleted it. If you think it is in order, please Billinghurst, could you restore the speech. Or please could you discuss this with Administrator Jusjih. Thanks. I hope this speech can be restored. I believe its being stored here would not infringe ROC copyright. Formosa (talk) 16:51, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately I cannot undelete it when it was made at Harvard University in the USA where this website is located, without evidence of USA copyright permission. As PD-in-USGov says that 17 U.S.C. 105 does not automatically apply outside the USA, neither does Article 9 of the ROC Copyright Act automatically apply outside Taiwan. Please explain which ROC website you saw the text, or I uphold Billinghurst's deletion as valid.--Jusjih (talk) 03:23, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The speech has been published on the official website of the Office of the President of the Republic of China. You can read it by going to and then clicking on press releases and opening the link entitled "President Ma's remarks at the video conference with the Fairbank Center, Harvard University". Thanks for looking into this. It is appreciated. Formosa (talk) 10:38, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Also User:Jusjih, you are mistaken when you say "I cannot undelete it when it was made at Harvard University in the USA". President Ma Ying-jeou made the speech in the Republic of China at his Presidential Office in Taipei. It was merely broadcast live to the Fairbank Centre, Harvard University, USA. User:Jusjih - Do these facts now change the position? Formosa (talk) 07:13, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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