User talk:Pratyeka

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Again, welcome! Inductiveload— talk/contribs  22:02, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

PDF now available.
I have replied to your message about Phil Trans, but I thought I'd ping you here too. The link is http://inductiveload.com/files/documents/11070387.pdf. If you get a working script, I would be very interested as I have no idea how to programatically remove PDF objects from a PDF file. Feel free to leave a message here, on the project page, or on my talk page! Welcome again to Wikisource! Inductiveload— talk/contribs  22:05, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * OK - thanks for the example document. I think basically you can use this tool: pdfimages. Then find which if any of the documents it does not work for, and get back to me. Under MacOSX it is available via the 'macports' tool with 'sudo port install xpdf-utils' or 'sudo port install poppler-utils'. Under most Linux systems it will be preinstalled. There is probably a way to get it to work on Windows, and almost definitely a possible route is via 'cygwin'. Let me know how you go. If that software does not solve your problem, let me know and I will try to write some that does. Pratyeka (talk) 06:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

File:Map for Manshu Chapter 1.svg
Which source is used for this? Wikiosurce can't use Google Earth for example. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:17, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I drew it myself. Pratyeka (talk) 04:49, 20 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The work is seeming to be more of an analytical work, rather than a translation, and I am starting to wonder whether the work is within scope of enWS, or whether it should be something that is more appropriate at b:Wikibooks:What is Wikibooks? — billinghurst  sDrewth  06:52, 20 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Wonder all you like, it has nothing to do with you. It's a translation. Translations are by definition analytical. Leave me to my own devices, thank you, I've had a gut-full of deletionists recently. Pratyeka (talk) 09:44, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

𧸘
You might be interested in this on Wiktionary. When it refers to the administrative division, it is read as jiǎn (based on Song dynasty《唐書釋音》九儉切). Justinrleung (talk) 00:55, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Interesting information, do you have an online link for that citation? My own analysis is speculation and could do with updating if there are reliable sources available of similar vintage. Pratyeka (talk) 11:50, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the late reply. Hanyu Da Zidian cites 唐書釋音 for the for 𧸘. I've checked 唐書釋音 at Chinese Wikisource and its corresponding scanned version; it seems to use 瞼 instead of 𧸘. 唐書 itself (editions: 欽定四庫全書, 武英殿二十四史, 摛藻堂四庫全書薈要) also uses 瞼 instead of 𧸘. That said, Hanyu Da Zidian also cites Gu Zuyu (a Qing dynasty scholar), who says 𧸘 is pronounced as 簡. Justinrleung (talk) 04:45, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I believe it's fully integrated now. I have given you credit for this useful discovery. Thanks again! Pratyeka (talk) 03:36, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for incorporating this! I also want to point out that your connection of the components of the character to Sino-Tibetan/Zhuang-Tai is not quite plausible. The character is a phono-semantic compound of semantic component 貝 (shell; money) and phonetic component 僉 (Old Chinese *skʰlam; Middle Chinese *t͡sʰiᴇm). From the fanqie from 唐書釋音, I think the Middle Chinese could be reconstructed to *kˠiᴇmX. The two other readings liàn and biǎn have nothing to do with this, even though it's using the same character. Liàn means "to prepay" and biǎn is used when the character is the variant of 貶. Justinrleung (talk) 03:53, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I am no expert but the fact that (AFAIK) there is only regional use attested through this text strongly suggests that an existing local phoneme (in any regional language or group of languages) could have been one plausible cause for the use of the glyph for this purpose &mdash; ie. while we can possibly trust the attestation of the glyph's radicals' origin and pronunciation (though this is often not a smart idea, according to more informed sources than myself), we cannot reliably determine when it began to be used for this semantic, where, or for what reason. Pratyeka (talk) 05:54, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding what you're saying. The simplest way to interpret the glyph is to interpret it as phono-semantic, which is the most common type of Chinese character. Trying to connect any phonetic value of 貝 to 𧸘 just wouldn't make much sense given the clear connection of the pronunciation of 𧸘 and 僉 (and even closer to 檢); connecting the phonetic value of the Zhuang-Tai word for shell to 𧸘 is even more bizarre. Justinrleung (talk) 06:14, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * What I was saying was that - according to my professor who is a famed ancient Chinese linguist - you can't always trust the rhyming dictionaries and the nominal etymologies constructed for various characters. Stepping back, I believe you have to stop thinking in a Chinese context. The area was not part of China and did not begin to receive any significant Han cultural influence until 300 years later in the Yuan Dynasty. The locals were not speaking Chinese, thinking Chinese, or generally reading Chinese. It was understood by some, but they were mere ministers. They also had interfaces with Tibetan, Tai, Mon-Khmer and probably Prakrit language speaking groups on other peripheries. In short, they didn't care how Chinese people labelled their settlements: that was a problem for the Chinese. When Chinese *did* want to document foreign words (such as the Yi words I have already uncovered within the text), they tended to do so by using familiar characters with similar phonetics - whether those were established, or perhaps, in some cases, otherwise. The sounds of the place names were no doubt sourced second hand from traders, either Nanzhao traders outside of the territory or Han or intermediate zone traders who had visited the places. The author quite probably never even heard the words spoken by a native, and simply would have picked something ballpark close to what the secondary source said, just as an uneducated person might butcher French or Chinese toponyms today. Pratyeka (talk) 08:12, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I do agree that we should not fully trust rhyming dictionaries and traditional analysis of Chinese characters. I do understand that the area was not Chinese-speaking, so etymology-wise (note: not about the glyph, but linguistically speaking), it is very likely that 𧸘 is probably a loan from the local language or some nearby language. However, the character is Chinese, just as earlier borrowings like 獅 (from an Indo-Iranian language) or 蜜 (from Tocharian) are Chinese. The glyph of the character can be analysed as any other glyph can be analysed. Since it's such a late character (relative to the oracle bone, bronze and seal scripts), I think it's quite transparently phono-semantic. This is evidenced in the pronunciation of the character based on commentaries to 唐書 like 唐書釋音, as well as in the choice of 瞼 instead of 𧸘 in 唐書. The semantic component was different, but both have 僉 as a phonetic component. All I can say about the pronunciation of the character is that it is read as jiǎn in Mandarin, based on Hanyu Da Zidian, which based it on 唐書釋音 (Song dynasty) and 顧祖禹 (Qing dynasty). This pronunciation is specific to Mandarin, which I do agree is less likely to reflect the actual pronunciation in the local language (or even Middle Chinese). I am not aware of any documents that the people of Nanzhao have written, so it is almost impossible to know how the word would be pronounced in the local language. With all this said, I fail to see how 貝 can be analysed for its phonetic value and connected to Mandarin readings from Unihan, which got its pronunciation data from Hanyu Da Zidian. Justinrleung (talk) 20:07, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, Mandarin is next to irrelevant pronunciation wise. However, Tang period speech is fairly understood - we can infer the historical Middle Chinese pronunciation as I have in the text. Those informed guesses will allow phonetic matching with relevant potential loan languages, which is what I did in the text. It's not supposed to be bulletproof, just a possible origin inference. Pratyeka (talk) 00:13, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, based on 唐書釋音 and Hanyu Da Zidian, I would rule out b- and l- as valid initials for the character, which would make your connection to Sino-Tibetan and Zhuang-Tai not quite plausible. Also based on 唐書釋音, you might also want to add /k/ (g in pinyin) to the list of sounds for the initial, since in Mandarin, the Middle Chinese /k/ is palatalized before /i/, i.e. it becomes /tɕ/ (j in pinyin). It's unlikely that the etymon for this character has the modern Mandarin j-. I would also caution you about Starostin's reconstructions (see this discussion on Wiktionary). For more reliable etymological sources, you might want to look into STEDT for Sino-Tibetan etymology, Pittayaporn's dissertation for Zhuang-Tai etymology and the SEAlang Mon-Khmer Etymological Dictionary for Mon-Khmer etymology. Hope this helps! Justinrleung (talk) 00:43, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Luce and the Manshu
Greetings from Yangon. I am completely new to Wikisource, so apologies if I get anything wrong.

Thank you for all your hard work putting this translation of the Manshu up online.

I'm a historian of Burma and so am familiar with much of Luce's work. I've been spent time poring over two of his articles in particular: _The Early Syāṁ in Burma's History_, published in the Journal of the Siam Society in 1957, and _Old Kyaukse and the Coming of the Burmans_, published in the Journal of the Burma Research Society in 1959. He relies heavily on the Manshu for both of them.

I don't read Chinese (I am familiar-as I think others have commented on here-with advances in the reconstruction of Middle Chinese, so I am not completely out of my depth), but looking through his translation and now yours, I am puzzled by how he made such precise identifications. In _Old Kyaukse.._, Luce even proposes an exact route for the migration of the "Proto-Burmans" into what is now Upper Burma(/Myanmar). His argumentation is problematic on many levels, having more to do with the ideas current in Britain when he was writing.

My question is, what do you think of Luce's translation and his identification of various placenames? Have you been taking his lead, or have you been coming to your own conclusions?

It's not clear how much Chinese Luce actually could read - it is very possible that others translated for him and that he edited those translations and put his name on them.

Thanks very much.

103.242.98.128 12:28, 29 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi there, thanks for your kind words. I recall reading, I think it must have been either in his Wikipedia page or in the preface or authors list of his Manshu translation, that Luce's translation was made "in conjunction with" (I suspect by) a Chinese friend of his. I have been independently translating and expect to have both made some errors and fixed some of his, and in fact in the secondary process of comparing my own translation to his I have confirmed cases of both. In general I get the sense that neither Luce nor his Chinese friend nor the original author nor his sources knew Yunnan (or perhaps "much of Yunnan") very intimately. This explains why the text is quite hand-wavey in some areas and detailed in others, and why certain errors have been made. In terms of non-Chinese placenames lying in modern day Myanmar, I have personally relied on web searches to find the apparent locations. Your work sounds interesting, I would love to visit you in Yangon one day. Please send me an email at walter at-symbol-followed-by pratyeka dot org. I made friends with an Australian lady who is the sort of resident international archaeologist in Vientiane, she is also very interesting to talk to. Pratyeka (talk) 19:48, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Copyright information needed for your map uploads
Hi Pratyeka,

The following maps that you uploaded have insufficient copyright/licensing information:


 * File:Manshu-tattoo-barbarians-location-map.svg
 * File:Manshu-changkun-barbarians-location-map.svg
 * File:Manshu-river-barbarians-location-map.svg
 * File:Map for Manshu Chapter 1 - Part 2.svg
 * File:Map for Manshu Chapter 1.svg

In particular, the underlying satellite imagery is clearly not your own work, and so its source and license must be documented. For the files that do have licensing information for your own original work, the templates used are inconsistent and look like they may have been simply copy&pasted from another upload. It would be preferable if you could clearly indicate a particular license for these portions. See Help:License templates for some guidance. And, depending on your intent in that regard, I would recommend either (a dedication to the public domain, reserving no rights) or  (a Creative Commons Attribution+Share Alike license, requiring reusers to credit the original and to license their modifications under the same license).

In any case, Wikisource policy does not permit us to host files whose copyright status cannot be determined; so if we cannot ascertain the source and licensing at least for the satellite imagery, the maps may end up having to be deleted. --Xover (talk) 12:48, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi Pratyeka. This is just a reminder that the above copyright issue is still unresolved. Please let me know if you need any kind of assistance or if something is unclear. --Xover (talk) 15:41, 21 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Sorry I have not had access to Wiki projects for a long time as I am currently based in China. I just saw this pop up in dated emails. Happy to help, but limited time. I will go for CC-BY-SA-4.0. I will do it now. Truth be told there is so much more important in my life but I will, on a Sunday night, do it immediately for you guys to prevent my hard work on this misunderstood region from being deleted and to solve this pressing concern which I understand is reasonable policy. -- Pratyeka (talk) 12:48, 24 November 2019 (UTC)


 * OK, I confirm I have added the missing licenses to . Looks like there was some sort of migration process. Unsure what that was. Don't have time to look in to it. Pratyeka (talk)
 * Thank you. But the most pressing issue is not the licensing for your original contributions—although that isn’t unimportant either—but rather the source and copyright status for the underlying satellite imagery and map data. Unless you happen to have a personal high-resolution earth observation satellite—:-)—the satellite imagery is owned by a third party whose licensing terms will have to be examined and documented. In other words, the most basic question is: from where did you get the satellite images and associated map data? Regards, —Xover (talk) 14:12, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

The files mentioned in this thread have now been deleted. Please do not reupload these or similar files unless you can document that they are either free of copyright (public domain or copyright term expired) or licensed under a compatible license. In particular, satellite imagery from Google Maps and similar sources are not compatible with our policy. --Xover (talk) 10:59, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Your input is requested at WS:PD
A community discussion regarding Translation:Manshu, to which you contributed, has been opened at WS:PD#Translation:Manshu. Your input in that discussion would be very valuable. --Xover (talk) 10:25, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

The Manshu...
Hello, While I am not requesting assistance concerning 'The Manshu' or your part in its recent appearance in English as translated by Gordon H. Luce, I would just like to thank you so very much for your work with 'The Manshu' or 'Book of the Southern Barbarians'. I believe Fan Cho originally wrote parts of it? The reason I want to thank you online right now is that I am really concerned at the trouble you have been experiencing with maintaining the website and the associated translation or copyright issues. 'The Manshu' I think probably saved my ass, if not my life, after I found a copy of this book on my last library visit to SOAS library at the University of London, probably in February 2020...Due to re-submit my deferred MA dissertation in only a couple of months, I discovered this marvel of a book quite by chance on the shelves. I had to scrawl down as much as I could because I had no time in which to borrow it. The information caused me to change and reformulate substantially some major ideas in my dissertation... Not long afterwards, the UK closed for the Covid-19 lockdown. Without anywhere to buy any Intenet, I had to upload my dissertation at the flat of a friend (I don't live in London but 'upcountry' from where I studied part-time)but hooking my laptop up to his Internet source. My dissertation passed. So did my entire MA... Partly due to your 'The Manshu'. I have nothing to ask but would like to request that people stop harassing you and let you get on with your long term work which I believe you began in 2015. I hope I and others like me are in no way to blame for your online troubles. Thank you very much for your book which so magically appeared on SOAS library shelves and on the last day possible. Keep up the good work. Thanks. Best Wishes, Lynne Charoenkitsuksun, MA, BA(Hons), TEFL Dip
 * Thanks Lynne, I am glad that you have enjoyed the work. I am however saddened and alarmed that it has no maps anymore, those represented many hours of tedious work never to be repeated. Pratyeka (talk) 09:16, 13 October 2021 (UTC)


 * To be clear, those maps are ineligible to be hosted because you used copyrighted aerial images, and fair use does not apply in this case (in fact, it never applies at Wikisource). I have previously offered to provide copies of the deleted images to you so you can make freely licensed variants, or commission them via commons:Commons:Graphic Lab/Map workshop but you did not answer. Inductiveload— talk/contribs 14:21, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I figured out how to use QGIS: File:Map for Manshu Chapter 1.svg. Please feel free to tweak and/or check details. Over time I will try to do the others. Inductiveload— talk/contribs 13:52, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

A new translation of Manshu
Hi Pratyeka, I just noticed you have a project about translating Manshu. Many thanks for your work for Yunnan. I'm good at Chinese document search and have some collections and knowledge of Yunnan history. If you restart the translation project, I'm glad to help you with some points. By the way, there is a new English translation for Manshu published in 2018, Yunnan University Press, titled 蛮书英译 Manshu - Records of Man People. The translator is Bu Shaoxian, English professor at Dali University. Not sure if you know this document. Here is the e-book: 瑞丽江的河水 (talk) 18:57, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot for letting me know! That's really interesting. Also recently, Mr. Ludwig M Brinckmann of Yunnan Explorer also recently completed another English translation and sent it to me, but I regret I have been so busy with my other commitments I have not yet had a chance to review it. So there are now not one but two new English translations! I am very glad that this work is receiving more attention and would like to hope that my own small contribution has added some value as the contents of the text are pretty fascinating for those of us who have an interest in the region's history. Pratyeka (talk) 20:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)