User talk:EncycloPetey/Archives/2015

New Proposal Notification - Replacement of common main-space header template
Announcing the listing of a new formal proposal recently added to the Scriptorium community-discussion page, Proposals section, titled:


 * • Switch header template foundation from table-based to division-based

The proposal entails the replacement of the current Header template familiar to most with a structurally redesigned new Header template. Replacement is a needed first step in series of steps needed to properly address the long time deficiencies behind several issues as well as enhance our mobile device presence.

There should be no significant operational or visual differences between the existing and proposed Header templates under normal usage (i.e. Desktop view). The change is entirely structural -- moving away from the existing HTML all Table make-up to an all Div[ision] based one.

Please examine the testcases where the current template is compared to the proposed replacement. Don't forget to also check Mobile Mode from the testcases page -- which is where the differences between current header template & proposed header template will be hard to miss.

For those who are concerned over the possible impact replacement might have on specific works, you can test the replacement on your own by entering edit mode, substituting the header tag   with   and then previewing the work with the change in place. Saving the page with the change in place should not be needed but if you opt to save the page instead of just previewing it, please remember to revert the change soon after your done inspecting the results.

Your questions or comments are welcomed. At the same time I personally urge participants to support this proposed change. -- George Orwell III (talk) 02:04, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Troubleshooting your issue
Hello,

I've been looking to your OCR button generation issue with a co-worker more familiar with FireFox than I am with little to show for it. Since you have no User: specific common.js or vector.js customizations in place to somehow "be in conflict with" vs. the normal/default settings, the only way "we" manage to reproduce the loss of (or more exactly 'prevent the generation of') the OCR button is to overload Gadget selection along with enabling a near asinine combination of personal settings (which I doubt you have in place to be clear). Nevertheless, until some other avenue of investigation presents itself, the only additional help that I can offer is to go through your settings with you to make sure somehow something there is not causing a conflict or something.

Preliminary Questions: George Orwell III (talk) 01:27, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * What skin do you currently have in place?.-- The "default" is vector but you've been around long enough to know switching from one skin to another does not necessarily guarantee all the old settings seamlessly switch over to the new state so I have to ask.
 * Which editing toolbar do you use by default; Classic or WikiEditor?.--
 * 1) Show edit toolbar <-- only this one of the three listed here should be selected for Classic
 * 2) Enable enhanced editing toolbar  <-- only this one of the three listed here should be selected for WikiEditor
 * 3) Enable wizards for inserting links, tables as well as the search and replace function  <-- never select this; for now, these features are not ready for "prime time"


 * My skin is Vector. I was unaware there was more than one editing toolbar available, and had to hunt around for the listed options. I have all three checked as I type this, but do not know why. I do not recall ever messing with these options. I will uncheck the latter two for now and see what happens. --EncycloPetey (talk) 01:54, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The editing toolbar seems to have been the issue. When I have only the first or second selected, the OCR button appears where it should. For now everything seems to be working properly, thanks. --EncycloPetey (talk) 01:59, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Phew! That was relatively easy compared to what I thought we'd have to go through. Still, this should make you aware of the possibility that user preference settings are not necessarily static nor without fault - reviewing them every so often seems like a good idea (especially when new issues present themselves). And would you be so kind as to amend your last in Scriptorium briefly noting what resolved your issue -- it might make all difference for someone else searching to resolve the same/similar issue(s). Thanks. -- George Orwell III (talk) 02:08, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

John Cale
Hi Petey. You've deleted the page "Oh, give thanks unto the Lord" (thank you, it was nonsense). It was falsely credited to John Cale. This page is empty now, I think it should be deleted. He was born in 1942 (still living) and his works will not be freely licensed in the near future. --Marek Koudelka (talk) 20:43, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * You mean Author:John Cale, yes? While we have no works in the public domain, and his published works are mostly going to be under copyright for the forseeable future, I'm hesitant to delete the page all the same. We do index speeches, published articles, and other items that might very well be suitable for Wikisource. --EncycloPetey (talk) 21:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for the reply. --Marek Koudelka (talk) 07:44, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Tom Brown's School Days - Earlier 3rd edition
I noticed Index:Tom Brown's School Days (6th ed).djvu has no source document. I've just found an earlier 3rd edition from 1857 at Internet Archive - [John Brown's School Days 3rd edition 1857]. The only thing wrong with it is the front Google page. It's available in PDF and Djvu. Would you be interested in having this at Wikisource? --kathleen wright5 (talk) 08:45, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "has no source document"? It is fully supported by scans at Commons File:Tom Brown's School Days (6th ed).djvu.
 * It's not linked to where it says 'djvu', which is why I thought there was no source document. --kathleen wright5 (talk) 13:34, 27 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Earlier editions can be added, but will not help with the later (revised) sixth edition; the particular edition chosen included superb illustrations based on the localities mentioned in the text. But I am not interested in working on any additional editions myself. --EncycloPetey (talk) 03:58, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Sort of thank-you: I am confused
With regards to your recent edit of page 37, Proceedings of the Cambridge Philosophical Society, obviously, thank you for correcting my oversight of not picking up the missing spaces (an omission which I have checked that I at least did not introduce!) However, I am rather concerned that at the same time you demoted the proofread status from "Validated" back to "Proofread." Why? Is there something you have observed (and I clearly have not) which is still outstanding needs to be addressed? If so there is no point in my proceeding without further clarification. In case you were concerned as to the edit one minute earlier by 101.175.182.137, that was me. I do not know why WS peremptorily logged me out right on the point of saving my edit but on this occasion I had logged straight back in again and re-saved the page as "Validated" (Which from my perspective it most certainly was, as my attention was entirely fixated at that moment upon the &lt;math&gt; output generation.) The foolish things one does when one is in a rush to meet an appointment and later regrets as in this instance. And would you credit it? In the time I spent composing this very note (fortunately I checked before committing it!) wikisource has—logged me back out. Wonder if I've forgotten to pay some kind of bill? AuFCL (talk) 10:43, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't change the proofread status. That must have been a software glitch. I've seen proofread statuses change inexplicably before and am guessing that's what happened. I have gone back to the page, and the software will not let me validate the page. I'm not given that option at all. You may have to see if someone else can do that. If not, then the problem is with the way the page was saved and someone more knowledgeable may have to fix the problem. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:48, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for checking. I've validated the page again and it accepted the change without issue (I had not attempted to before, in case you had spotted yet another error which I was simply goggling at without seeing...paranoid, moi?) However, why the page "jumped status" has still got me, well ! AuFCL (talk) 10:30, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
 * As I say, I've seen this oddity happen from time to time, and (unfortunately) when one editor has changed the proofread status of the page, that editor cannot upgrade the status of the same page further. So the glitch prevents an editor from fixing the problem himself. Glad we got it sorted though. --EncycloPetey (talk) 15:16, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Somewhat unrelated note:
Please cast your mind back to those spaces you added to page 37 above. Somewhat belatedly I realise why I had not picked up the issue myself. As I've studied enough (I claim no deeper expertise) of Bertrand Russell's notation I realise this was in fact his shorthand mathematical notation for "substitute X for every occurrence of Y in formula F" (symbolically $$F\frac{X}{Y}$$) and in fact Part I of Principia Mathematica further defines 'Id.' as a standard function. The upshot of all this is that there really should not be a space following the period whenever the previous word is "Prop" or "Id" (or in fact any of the keywords noted in Page:Russell, Whitehead - Principia Mathematica, vol. I, 1910.djvu/14 on these pages, as such expressions are technically mathematical formula and not prose at all. However at this stage I certainly shall not quibble and change them back unless the final article transclusion turns out to look alarmingly wrong! This is what I get for a misspent youth studying symbolic logic. Yes, I am truly a sad case (so you don't need to say it!) AuFCL (talk) 11:32, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Whether this was an error in the typesetting I cannot say, since I have come across all sorts of odd publication errors. Be that as it may, I was following the spacing selected by the typesetter, and trying to match the publication pages as they display in the scans, and not simply inserting spaces after periods. --EncycloPetey (talk) 15:16, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
 * If the truth be stated the typesetting of this particular extract is so convoluted that strictly it is beyond the capabilities of &lt;math&gt; (at least at either of my or GrafZahl's 2006-as-was level of ability) and the formulae should really best be re-expressed throughout as images. Worse, either of these approaches—math or image—is unlikely to produce eventual output which would be usable on any but a high-end eBook reader (my cheap one would definitely fail!) In any case may I re-state I have no qualms about your changes, and appreciate your taking the effort to look over this minefield. AuFCL (talk) 23:28, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Queen Mab protection: unintended side-effects?
When you applied the above protection did you intend it to affect templates such as Table style/parse? I am happy to wait for the rule to expire on 4th September if this is easiest but would have liked to add a new shortcut to ts. If new procedures are in place regarding template changes perhaps you'd be so kind as to direct me to where they are advertised as I seem to have missed the announcement. Even more strangely appears to have made an attempt to explicitly exempt this template from coverage but the two protections appear to be taking effect in a different order than appears intended? Please don't take this too harshly as I am truly on the cusp between completely understanding the desire to preserve a feature text (i.e. lock it down!) and the rather unfriendly aspect of effectively suspending all other developmental activity pending showing off a single work (i.e. why didn't we take an independent copy—including all of its dependencies—and lock and disport that instead, leaving the original open to legitimate update should some unforeseen blemish be noticed during the featured display duration? Somebody almost always notices a late punctuation or similar error.) AuFCL (talk) 03:54, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Billinghurst did not try to exempt anything, he saw that the template was unprotected when adding something and decided to take it from zero protection to light protection. Re protection I generally find that we only need to do main ns, as the vandalism in non-main namespace is insignificant, and with our patrolling it is quickly remedied if it is. — billinghurst  sDrewth  06:37, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * O.K. calm down B. I did realise your change was dated two days before EPs and wondered about that. In fact I thought one protection attempt might end up "hiding" another, and presumably this is wrong too. The point remains autopatrolled users like myself may not currently change Table style/parse the blocking message reading, quote:

You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason: This page has been protected from editing, because it is included in the following page, which is protected with the ‘cascading’ option turned on:  Queen_Mab
 * —and what I would appreciate knowing is, (1) was this intentional; and (2) is the disruption factor justified; and perhaps (3) why not notify people of the "suspension of good faith" for the intervening period.


 * Billinghurst's response seems to imply to me the answers appear to be, respectively NO, HUH? and BECAUSE. Is this right? Now can well all be polite to one another once more? I was trying to make a point, yet not be provocative. AuFCL (talk) 06:54, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I followed the instructions as given in FT, to apply cascading protection. If those instructions are incorrect or misleading, then please correct them. Since the above conversation does not appear to involve me, could you please hold it somewhere more appropriate? --14:49, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Can you please point me to the requirement for cascading protection? I have reread WS:FT and WS:FTC and to my reading both seem to indicate protection in the main namespace. Thanks. — billinghurst  sDrewth  00:46, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Literally the shortest paths I have been able to discover between WS:FT and first mention of cascading protection has been a toss-up between: WS:FT&rarr;WS:FTC&rarr;(talk page)Wikisource_talk:Featured_text_candidates, and: WS:FT&rarr;WS:PP&rarr;(talk page)&rarr;Wikisource_talk:Protection_policy Now if the inclusion of talk pages in the path renders such advice non-canonical then neither alternative is legitimate. Unless one can find a less direct alternative I think you may draw your own conclusion. AuFCL (talk) 05:47, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * At this point I'm not sure whether I mis-remembered an old version of the instructions (since I haven't done FT here in a while), or mistakenly used the directions from Wikipedia's "Newest Articles" (in which I used to participate). Either way, explicit clarification about using (or not using) cascading protection wouldn't hurt.--EncycloPetey (talk) 18:40, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Category:Banjo Paterson poetry
Thanks for the note re the author category. The reason I started it was that I considered his works should fit under Australian poetry category and figured that his entries would swamp the higher level category and make it rather unreadable. However, if the policy is not to have author categories then I'll start to move them.Perry Middlemiss (talk) 05:31, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Recent restorations
Please see Copyright_discussions/Archives/2010-02 for context. In short, the contributor him-/her- self admitted those where added without the knowledge of our requirements and were "taken" nearly word for word from another site's grab of the content found in a 1938 composite work (not 1912). -- George Orwell III (talk) 03:56, 30 October 2015 (UTC)


 * If I correctly understand the discussion: The 1912 Athenian Society text would be PD, however the submitted text was not the 1912 text, but rather a 1938 text claiming to be the 1912 text, and with added notes that are still under copyright. Correct?
 * Correct (unfortunately)....


 * My ultimate intention is to go about adding sourced copies of the 1912 Athenian Society translations (among other PD translations). So, would stripping out the non-PD notes qualify the result for a stop-gap measure, or would re-deletion (with notation for future reference) be the correct course?


 * The complication I'm currently facing is that I've found no copies of the 1912 Athenian Society translations in IA. And only the second volume (of two) exists at Hathi Trust. On my next holiday break from work, I plan to pursue this issue with IA. I want to find out why there is no copy at IA, and (unless there are other issues I don't yet know about) work with them to provide a scan of both volumes (I own a copy of the 1912 publication).


 * So, anything more that you can provide in the way of help, thoughts, advice, IA contacts, etc. would be appreciated. Equipping en:wikisource with a full array of Greek drama is a priority of mine. --EncycloPetey (talk) 05:09, 30 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Oh, Ok, I see where you were going now. Since you were planning to replace the un-hostable content with a scanned backed ones, we can leave the restorations for the time being. As for locating an existing copy or copies to convert to .djvu, you said Hathi only had vol. 2 of 2 so take a look at ....
 * http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/007133438
 * ... to make sure you did not mean vol. 1 of 2. Then take look at IA here...
 * https://archive.org/details/elevencomedies00arisuoft
 * ... to see if the original pointer suggested in 2009 is of any use. There is no clear year of publication given (as far as I can tell) and the front matter is peppered with out-of-order and duplicate pages of the Forward yet there is mention that the content itself is the 1912 content. Without further investigation to nail down the actual Pub. date / edition, I get the feeling this IA hosted copy won't be hostable here either in spite of this IA copy...
 * https://archive.org/details/elevencomedies00aris
 * ... claiming a pub. year of 1920 to support the first link. Finally, I think a closer search on IA for keywords like "11 comedies" or "Aristophanes" is in order (the latter had 785 results for example!). If we can't get anywhere through possible IA copies, the next step would be a closer look at Google Books for a version to upload and convert on IA for our purposes. -- George Orwell III (talk) 21:04, 30 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I may have misremembered about Hathi, yes. The search was done about a week ago, when I was looking for what was available of several translations in English at several sites.


 * Most IA copies are not in English, or are duplicates of the same edition, or are works that merely mention / cite The Eleven Comedies. I've been researching the identities of well-known translators, like Frere and Hickie, to help narrow my searches.


 * Most of the copies of The Eleven Comedies are a later publication that was "based on" the Athenian Society translation. This undated later edition was published at some point in the 1920s (that's all the date I can get from the several sites I've been searching), and there is no guarantee that it faithfully follows the one by the Athenian Society. My best guess at this point is that The Eleven Comedies is the same as the one from 1938 that included new annotations and which has had its copyright renewed. Because of the uncertainty about the date and content, and the possibility it is not in PD, I'm reluctant to pursue that avenue, and would rather go with the 1912 Athenian Society version if we can make that happen. As I say, I own a copy of the 1912 translation, and I live close enough to San Francisco that (if need be) I would make arrangements to visit the IA offices and scan it in myself.


 * Thanks for the additional suggestions; I'll be investigating some of those later this evening and/or tomorrow. --EncycloPetey (talk) 21:23, 30 October 2015 (UTC)


 * The pub date for "Most of the copies" seems to be 1928 by H. Liveright, you're right about not being able to host it. Plus I can't find any useable online 1912 edition though I did manage to establish the proper OCLC for it; sorry. Sounds like scanning it yourself is the only option all things being equal. -- George Orwell III (talk) 23:58, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi, can you give a quick assessment of how extensive the alterations and additions are in our currently hosted text vs the physical 1912 edition you have? If it is substantial, throughout, I'd prefer the current text is deleted until we've got a suitable edition to work with. If it is only minor alterations, we do a service to everyone by identifying the differences by completing it with the full (copyright violating) text commonly distributed online, and then removing whatever alterations were made from the current text in order to restore the integrity of the original. Uni of Adelaide states "Some modification has since been applied, with the addition of stage directions and some updating of the language." If it is all the stage directions, then IMO it is substantial and we should delete the current text and its history. We could use a bit of computation to remove the stage directions from the text (looks relatively easy) and put it back as a new page without the old history publicly accessible. John Vandenberg (chat) 09:02, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

I am quite confident that we can use https://archive.org/stream/elevencomedies00arisuoft#page/276/mode/2up or https://archive.org/stream/elevencomedies00aris#page/276/mode/2up. While it does appear to be a 1928 edition, I can't find any US copyright renewal for any alterations made to it from the 1912 original. If nothing else, using that edition is many more times defensible than the one we currently have, as it appears to be the same as was used for the the Gutenberg etext. John Vandenberg (chat) 09:42, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Special:PrefixIndex/Page:Lawrence_Kansas
You seem to have deleted the parent Index: ns page, though not touched the Page: ns pages. Would you be able to work out where they belong and if it wasn't a copyright deletion, then maybe they belong in the user subpages. Thanks. — billinghurst  sDrewth  05:37, 30 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I really don't know where they belong (if anywhere). The work was deleted for not being PD, so I don't think we can keep any of the subpages. The subpages were not deleted at the time because the original Index file was broken and didn't display a page list, so I was unaware of them. --EncycloPetey (talk) 13:04, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Deleted.— Mpaa (talk) 22:17, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Re: AkBot
OK. But I was told by @User:Billinghurst at #wikisource that for interwiki it is not necessary. The whole set is ~100 interwikis for Dickens's works.

Or, maybe, I should add them manually? (it will be even faster, byt higher chance of mistakes) Ankry (talk) 23:00, 11 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The links you are adding should not be added, for two reasons: (1) We do not add interwiki links for individual chapters. (2) If we later add another edition of Oliver Twist, it will not be possible to interwiki link both sets of chapters across wikis. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:02, 11 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Actually EncycloPetey the existing practice has allowed the addition of interlanguage links on chapters, and has been that way for years. It is done for the use of mw:Extension:DoubleWiki ... click the  symbol in the interlanguage. I believe that this is why the adding of interlanguage links for bots is excluded from requiring permissions, and was done to allow for this to happen, and was decided at about the time of the language split from oldWS (before my time, but my recollection of my reading a long time ago). With regard to extra versions of the works, that is not an issue from our end as the interlanguage links will still work fine as they are at the work level and relative links. If we move the pages then there is an issue at the other language wiki as their targets need to be updated if there are no existing redirects, and traditionally we have notified the other wiki, or just updated the other wiki. It is also possible to put in multiple interlanguage links when there are multiple versions at another wiki circumvents that issue on the rare occasions that it occurs. It is a little ugly when it happens, but from memory I saw it on some Chekov works,
 * It is definitely an old means with old technology however, nothing better has occurred, and the direct interlanguage link through WD is problematic due to versions. So at the moment it is all that exists and effectively works. — billinghurst  sDrewth  23:42, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

scriptorium vandalism
hi, noticed the page blanking by a series of new accounts. is it possible to lock, or filter editing of scriptorium ?  Slowking4♡Richard Arthur Norton's revenge 22:36, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Spambot, block evasion
Hello, Just a suggestion, when you see a user account like this "Ajsghdhjgs" or "fooahhzqh" please block the user's immediately without hesitation. More info.--Grind24 (talk) 23:10, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:12, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Page:The chemical history of a candle.djvu/18
The footnotes are at the end of the work in a seperate section, I hadn't inlined them yet because I wasn't sure there was a consensus. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:51, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I wasn't sure either, which is why I marked it. --EncycloPetey (talk) 20:05, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Subsequently, I've inlined them all so that it's consistent.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:38, 4 December 2015 (UTC)