User:Londonjackbooks/sandbox3

Notes to self

 * Help:Footnotes and endnotes

 How to phrase?... If I decide to use a, b, c, etc. for ref/notes (see example), can I always begin with "a" (within the same poem/Mainspace page) as long as the reference within the footnote appears in a new footnote? Do you know what I mean? If so, how would you have phrased my question? Londonjackbooks (talk) 13:20, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes; Yes; "Can (Should) the footnotes within a footnote use the same sequence as those in previous footnotes? Or do I need to continue the sequence from footnote to footnote?" For me, consistency of approach across a work is important, so either a, b, c, … or *, †, ‡, §, ¶, … but not a mixture of the two (unless of course, there are more than two layers of footnote—something I hope never to see in my proofreading!) Beeswaxcandle (talk) 17:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

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I should point out that Help:Footnotes and endnotes says that if endnotes will be on the same main page as their references they should be treated as with a smallrefs as usual. If the main page will be subpaged, then references should have their own subpage. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 18:56, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

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To BWC: That would seem to apply to some of the Portal:Romanes Lectures I'm working on,—where the endnotes are on the same page as the body of text in the Main. Proofreaders (of the Romanes Lecture texts) have used anchors and 1 for this purpose, and I have been copying that method with Machiavelli. Is that not ok? (I might not be understanding the Help page statement) Footnotes still pepper some of the texts, although endnotes are prevalent. Is the help page suggesting that an editor copy the text of each endnote and place it on the corresponding Index: page? Otherwise, how would you treat the endnote as a footnote (using s ) otherwise? I am confused. Please untangle my brain! Londonjackbooks (talk) 19:46, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Childe Harold's Pilgrimage is another example of where footnotes and endnotes reside on the same Mainspace page but I am dealing with them separately (endnotes w/ anchors; & footnotes 'traditionally'.). [To add, the endnotes also contain footnotes, and those footnotes are combined with the 'traditional' footnotes at the end of the Mainspace page. Londonjackbooks (talk) 14:53, 9 February 2013 (UTC)] Londonjackbooks (talk) 19:49, 8 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, the help page is saying that the endnote text should be copied to the appropriate place in the Page: namespace. However, it was written after most of the Romanes Lectures were proofread. This means that there is now a tension between maintaining a consistent style for a "work" and following best practice per the help page advice. The tension is resolved by remembering a) that the help page is advice rather than policy; and, b) that we're trying to make the work usable in the mainspace for both the casual and the more serious reader. We do need to amend the help page a little to indicate that it means changing the pages in the Page: namespace and refering the reader to the section at the bottom of the page. We also need to add a section about how to deal with footnotes within footnotes. Could you please have a go at this as you're doing so many of them at the moment? Beeswaxcandle (talk) 18:35, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

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 * Hello. Please forgive this intrusion, all. May I make a small addition to the pending review list, noting that the documentation against parameter "group" at smallrefs/doc, contains a pointer to Footnotes. Regrettably WP has moved on and this anchor is now gone. If the new help text should happen to be amenable, perhaps this link should be re-assigned less, umm, pointlessly? MODCHK (talk) 00:15, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Other direction

 * BWC's suggestion: my rendering
 * EncycloPetey's suggestion
 * MODCHK's direction: Embedding references within footnotes (Wikipedia)

Straightforward cases
... Till the tired jade the wheel forgets to hurl,

Provoking envious gibe from each pedestrian churl.

Cases that span more than one page

 * A nice long example from Childe Harold's Pilgrimage Canto I:
 * Index page begins here. Note some 'fudging' of block center formatting.


 * Haven't figured out what to do yet if a footnote which spans more than one page contains a footnote which breaks between pages, but I am working on it as I write. Londonjackbooks (talk) 19:56, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay... I guess I tackled a similar situation before. What I figure needs to be done is: All of the footnotes within the footnote (in this case 3) need to be placed on the last Index:page which contains the original footnote.  Otherwise, the footnote & all corresponding footnotes w/in will be split up in the Main (which would make sense—but not to me initially).  Basically, another "fudge" case. (reference pp. 108 & 109)

Alt exs.:
 * it:page:L'astronomo Giuseppe Piazzi.djvu/53 to it:page:L'astronomo Giuseppe Piazzi.djvu/57
 * Dramas of Aeschylus (Swanwick)/Persians (footnote #9)

Muddlesome cases

 * A case of footnotes within footnotes within footnotes that span more than one page from Childe Harold's Pilgrimage Canto I:
 * Index page begins here. Note some 'fudging' of block center formatting.

Works with footnotes and endnotes
"Unlike footnotes, endnotes have the advantage of not affecting the layout of the main text, but may cause inconvenience to readers who have to move back and forth between the main text and the endnotes." [ Note (typography) ]

Endnotes, if particularly lengthy (i.e., if they span several pages), would be cumbersome to proofreaders and validators to have to wade through in the Page:namespace if the material has (perhaps somewhat compulsorily) been copied from its original Page:namespace page in order for it to be incorporated into regular footnotes. If the moved endnotes also contain their own footnotes, this further complicates matters for the editor/proofreader/validator. However, Re: "inconvenience to readers who have to move back and forth between the main text and the endnotes": This should also be a factor in deciding how to best present the material. Author's intent as well as reader convenience should both trump any inconvenience on the part of the editor.

At WS, it is an editor's primary purpose to replicate the rendering of text with author's intent always in mind, wherever possible. In cases where publishers were restricted in certain areas, we may not be here, and we can adjust accordingly but without deviating from the original intent of the author/publisher. Ease of reader should be secondary to author's intent, in my opinion.


 * Decide: whether endnotes reside on same Mainspace page as text or are on a subpage: Depends (in my opinion) on each individual text and how sections are dealt with both within the text as well as how listed in the TOC. All this would factor into how all info is best presented in the Main.


 * It is my opinion that both footnotes and endnotes should be used in Childe Harold's Pilgrimage (see ex. with Canto II) based on the above factors as well as the nature/purpose of the use of the footnotes/endnotes in the text itself. Note: Endnotes in the work have their own footnotes, which I am incorporating into the main body of footnotes (as the poem/notes/footnotes all reside on same subpage-per-Canto).


 * ex. Endnote 6 (which contains its own footnotes, as well as footnotes within a footnote,—which, as of this writing, I haven't proofread yet due to laziness) spans over 4 pages.  To transfer all that text to the originating Index page would be sheer madness.

Works with only endnotes

 * Factors: Length of work/length of endnotes; and do endnotes have their own footnotes???
 * Will/should endnotes reside on same Mainspace page as text or will they be placed on a new subpage?

Sandbox
