Talk:The Divine Liturgy of Saint James

This article was transwikied from The Divine Liturgy of Saint James (Transcription). &mdash;Cryptic (talk) 16:06, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The history of the article there was:
 * 05:49, 6 June 2005 Maver1ck m (→The prayer of incense at the last entrance - Wiki quotes - Please help out by clicking here to fix someone else's Wiki syntax.)
 * 05:45, 6 June 2005 Maver1ck m (→The Communion of the Faithful - Wiki quotes - Please help out by clicking here to fix someone else's Wiki syntax.)
 * 05:43, 6 June 2005 Maver1ck m (→The Anaphora - Wiki quotes - Please help out by clicking here to fix someone else's Wiki syntax.)
 * 18:48, 6 May 2005 Zantastik (consensus was transwiki, removed vfd text)
 * 15:15, 26 February 2005 AllyUnion
 * 09:58, 26 February 2005 AllyUnion m (Removing VFD notice. This article needs to be transwikied to: Wikisource)
 * 00:39, 13 February 2005 Phils
 * 05:02, 3 January 2005 220.240.51.122
 * 01:20, 3 January 2005 220.240.51.122 (→Prayer of the commencement)
 * 01:18, 3 January 2005 220.240.51.122

I don't know how to establish a link, but it appears to me that this page should be linked to: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Christian_works

From what language was this edition translated?
I myself am an Orthodox Christian and this translation seems different in terminology from any Orthodox Liturgy which I have read. For example, I edited the point at which the Deacon chants "Sir, pronounce the blessing". In an Orthodox Liturgy, the priest is always referred to as "Father" or "Master". Generally, the lay people and reader refer to him as "Father" and the deacon and other subordinate clergy refer to him as "Master". Countless such details require correction in order to fully encompass the meaning of how this liturgy was written. —unsigned comment by Agomulka (talk).


 * This edition was moved here from Wikipedia, but there are no clues as to which edition was used. If you can improve it by making it match a specific edition, that would be great.  If you do make improvements, please record here which edition you are using. John Vandenberg (chat) 23:58, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Good people, it looks to me like it is the translation from Ante-Nicene Fathers volume 7.

A link to that: Ante-Nicene Fathers/Volume VII/Early Liturgies/The Divine Liturgy of James the Holy Apostle and Brother of the Lord CYGNIS INSIGNIS 19:28, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

It is indeed strange to hear the word Sir addressed to the Celebrant for a modern Orthodox ear (I am Coptic Orthodox myself); but I think that editing a source to conform to modern usage is probably not in general a good idea - at least not when it comes to study and research. But in fact this word is not really far from other words we use. Consider what 'Sir' really means. Originally used for nobles, it derives from Latin 'senior'. So it really means 'elder', which is still current for a spiritual teacher, and which is also the meaning of Presbyter, today shortened to Priest. In Spanish, the common word used for both Mister and Sir is still Señor. === May I mention for what it's worth that in Arabic speaking Churches, we always both address and also refer to our Bishops informally as 'our Master' (Sayyedna in Arabic). We do this in the Coptic Church, and I hear it too in the (Jacobite) Syriac Church. Needless to say, Jesus was called Master. 'Master', of course, isn't connected with Sir or senior, but is the origin of Mister, and carries some of the undertones of 'Sir'. We should also, perhaps, bear in mind that the word Father formerly inspired much more respect than it does today. Once upon a time a father could virtually dispose over his family ; as lately as in Victorian times there were children addressing their father as Sir. Again, Sir derives from Sire, and this also can mean ancestor, as well as beget (as verb). The sense of Father is never far away! === I should like to know what the word is in the Syriac. (The present translation, made for T&T Clark around 1890, seems, according to the introduction, to have been made from Greek, as two whole and one incomplete Greek manus. are mentioned, but none Syriac.) The translator(s) and editors would certainly have been aware of their contemporary usage, in this respect much the same as in the East. They would probably also have known that 'Sir' has formerly been used for a Priest, but I think they must have settled on 'Sir' for better reasons than archaic English usage. === Achieving conformity certainly has its advantages. However, there are also fresh insights gained sometimes when familiar expressions are replaced with surprising ones. Personally I like to enter into and enjoy the unusual flavour of new things. If you go to the Syriac Orthodox Church, you can still hear this liturgy, by the way; though I think you may find it but in Arabic with Syriac parts. An English booklet may be present for visitors. You may still have to search for SyriaN Orthodox Church of Antioch, as they only recently changed name. === If anyone should like to use such a text for private prayers, I am sure he will know to adapt it to his liking. Though the 'Sir' would not be among the parts one would use at home! Isak Otto, London.