Summarized Sworn Detainee Statement (ISN 061, September 30 2004)

When the Tribunal President described the Tribunal process to the Detainee, the Translator stated he needed a short recess. During the recess, the first Translator was replaced with another Translator for the Tribunal process. During the recess, the Tribunal President gave the Oath to the new Translator.]

When asked by the Tribunal President if the detainee understood the CSRT process, the Detainee answered, "Yes, I do."

Tribunal President: Do you have any questions concerning the Tribunal process?

Detainee: I will wait.

Tribunal President: If you have a question, you may ask it at that time.

[After the Recorder presented the Unclassified Summary and read paragraph 3.a.3: "Detainee is a close association with, and planned to travel to Pakistan with, an individual who later engaged in a suicide bombing. Bilgin possibly is the Elalanutus suicide bomber." The detainee asked the following, question:

Detainee: where are the explosives? What bombs?

[Recorder to Tribunal President:] Sir, I don’t believe I can answer in this session.

Tribunal President! I certainly cannot answer because this is the first time I have seen this evidence. It is my understanding that anything remaining concerning this individual (Bilgin) is in the classified session.

Detainee: Should I answer the question now, or later?

Tribunal President: Youw will have an opportunity in a moment to address this in any matter you would like.

when asked by the Tribunal President if he wanted to make a statement, the detainee stated yes and provided his statement after electing to be sworn. The detainee testifies essentially as follows:

Detainee: I am here because Selcuk Bilgin had bombed somebody? I wasn’t aware he had done that. My association with him is not as a terrorist. We exercised together at the gym and played sports. We both raised dogs, and because of this common interest, we became very good friends. Even though he was several years older than me, he was l~e a big brother. I wasn’t aware he had done those things. I don’t need friends like that. I am a Muslim from Germany. I didn’t start praying until I was eighteen or nineteen years old. My parents are not Muslim and they don’t pray. My religion is peaceful. No one has the fight to kill anyone because they don’t pray. If I were a terrorist, I wouldn’t have needed to go to Pakistan. For example, if I killed people because they didn’t pray, I would have started with my mother and father. They would be the first ones I would have killed, because they didn’t pray. I love my mother and father more than anyone. I also have a lot of friends that don’t pray. At the time I didn’t pray, no one had the right to kill me because of it.

I never supported terrorists and I still don’t support terrorism. I just want peace, to be a Muslim, and pray to God. That is the reason I wanted to study Islam from Jamayat Al Tabliq. Now I hear Jamayat Al Tabllq supports terrorism. I never knew that. The Muslims in Germany are peaceful people. They never talked about terrorist acts or that they support terrorism.

I have a lot of German friends that are Christians. If I supported terrorism and killing Christians, I could have done that in Germany. It would have been easier than traveling to Pakistan. My reason for going to Pakistan wasn’t to kill anyone or learn about weapons, it was to study Islam. In Germany, Islam was only taught on weekends; therefore, it would take a few years to learn what would only take a month in Pakistan. Turkey and Saudi Arabia also had schools, but they also took longer. I didn’t have any connections with any Muslims in Saudi Arabia. The Muslims I knew in Germany talked about the school in Pakistan. Although I didn’t know them very well, I believed they studied Islam in Pakistan. That is the reason I went to Pakistan.

When I went to the school in Lahore, I asked if I could study Islam. I was told they would have to ask their leader. His name was (inaudible). I was then told that the leader wasn’t in Pakistan; therefore, I Couldn’t talk to him. I was given a room for the night and food. The next morning, before I left, I was given breakfast. It was the day the war started in Afghanistan with the Americans.

After I left Lahore, I visited Jamayat Al Tabliq in different mosques. In one of the mosques, Mohammad helped me study Islam. He told me he would get me free food. It wasn’t really free food. About five people would buy food for the ten to twen,y people that were there. The next day, someone else would buy the food the next day.

I don’t remember the exact date, but I was in Pakistan four or five weeks before I was put in jail. At that time, I learned a lot about the Koran and how to pray. The Pakistani’s pulled me off the bus to ~ to me. They told me they wanted to check my citizenship paperwork. I didn’t understand what they were saying because they were talking in their native language. They ended up taking me to a room and asking me questions. A man with a turban wanted to know what I was doing in Pakistan. He had asked if I was an American or a journalist. After I told him I was a Turkish citizen living in Germany, he telephoned someone. After asking me several more questions, he took me to a room and told me to relax. I was then told I could use my plane tickets to go home. I explained to them I had a Visa. I asked them why so many questions? I didn’t do anything wrong in Pakistan. They told me there wasn’t any problems, they just wanted to take me to the airport. Later that evening, I was told I had to sleep with the prisoners. I had no choice the police had guns. The next I knew I was put in chains and my eyes were covered. I was taken to a house and put in isolation for approximately one week. After I was interrogated, I was taken back to the underground jail. Later, Americans came and interrogated me. After two days, a mask was placed over my head and I was handed over to the Americans.I was put on a plane and taken somewhere. I was told it was Kandahar, but I wasn’t sure. After a few months, they brought me to Cuba.

I didn’t do anything wrong in Pakistan nor did I harm anyone in any country. I have never been to America, before or after 11 September. I didn’t have any reason to go to Afghanistan. My visa was issued in Germany to travel to Pakistan not Afghanistan. (inaudible) told me Selcuk had blew up himself and someone else. I never knew about that and he had never done anything like that before. When I knew Selcuk, he was a good friend of mine. He exercised a lot; he was a nice guy. After Selcuk got married, we didn’t spend much time together. He didn’t go to the gym as often and I was busy studying art.

A few weeks after I started going to the Mosque to pray, I saw Selcuk at the mosque praying. I told him about my trip to Pakistan. He told me he thought going to Pakistan was a good idea and he wanted to go with me. I never knew he was a terrorist or that he thought about those kinds of things. I am not an expert in Islamic religion, but I know the Koran says if you kill yourself, you will go to hell. That is one reason why I can’t support terrorism. Terrorists kill themselves and several others.

My family is in Germany. A terrorist attack could occur there anytime and my parents could be killed. I have never supported terrorism in anyway. I am smart enough to realize terrorism has nothing to do with Islam. I didn’t know Jamayat Al Tabliq supported terrorism because that was never discussed and I never saw anything to indicate they did. I enjoyed living in Germany. I don’t hate anyone because of his religion. I have never had problems with Christians or anyone else. Many of my German friends are Christians. We work and eat together.

I have never supported terrorism. I hate terrorist. I am here having lost a few years of my life because of Usama Bin Laden. His beliefs show Islam in the wrong way. I am not angry with Americans. Many Americans died on 11 September in the terrorist attack. I realize the Americans are trying to stop terrorism. I think it is very noble. All countries should do the same thing. Because Usama Bin Laden said he is a Muslim and he has killed many people, several Muslims were arrested. I am a Muslim, but I am not a terrorist. If I could prevent terrorism, I would. Islam is a peaceful religion. It should not be mixed up with terrorism. I don’t know why Usama Bin Laden hates certain countries and other religions. Usama Bin Laden wants help from all Muslims. What he is doing has nothing to do with Islam. I am a Muslim, I am fasting, but I don’t hate anyone because of his religion. There wasn’t a war between America and Saudi Arabia. The Americans have a fight to defend themselves after the attack by Muslims on 11 September. I am sure 11 September had nothing to do with Islam.

I have never received any military training. The Turkish Army wanted me in the military. I didn’t go. I took a few years (inaudible). I don’t like the Army. I like doing different jobs. I am not a terrorist and I have never supported terrorism. If any Muslim talked to me about terrorism, I would tell them to their face it was wrong. I Would do everything I could to stop them. I don’t have any proof to show you, but I didn’t harm or kill anyone. I didn’t steal anything from anyone.

I went to study in Pakistan at the wrong time. I wasn’t aware there was a war going on in Afghanistan. I heard on the news Americans wanted to stop Usama Bin Laden with special teams and mortars or something. I didn’t know the war had started. When I traveled to Pakistan the war hadn’t started. Even if the war was going on in Afghanistan, it had nothing to do with Pakistan. For over twenty years Turkey has been at war with the PKK. I went to Turkey several times on vacation but knew there were problems, so I returned to Germany. I never saw any fighting in Pakistan. I was nineteen when I took my trip to Pakistan. It was probably the wrong time to go. I didn’t know I would get arrested because of my skin color or because I was from Germany.

I hope you will judge me on the truth. I am not an enemy combatant. If I were, I would tell you. Enemy combatants go to jail in their own country. I would be much more comfortable in jail in my country, than I am here. I won’t lie just to go to jail in my country. I want my freedom back because I am not a terrorist.

Tribunal President: Personal Representative do you have any questions for the detainee?

Personal Representative: No.

Tribunal President: Recorder do you have any questions for the Detainee?

Recorder: Yes Sir.

Summarized Answers in Response to the Recorder
Q. You said you did not know that Selcuk Bilgin was a terrorist or involved in suicide bombings. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. How long were the two of you friends?

A. We have been friends since I was sixteen. We were good friends until he got married in 2000. I never knew he experimented with bombs. He never talked about it. We just exercised and raised dogs together. While we were in Germany, he never had anything to do with explosives. If he had something to do with explosives after my arrest, I’m sure the German government was aware of it. The German government can verify I wasn’t in Germanyat the time.

Q. Jamayat A1 Tabliq supported you in your travels to further your studies in Islam. Did you know Jamayat A1 Tabliq supported terrorism?

A. You asked me two questions right?

Recorder: Beginning with the statement the Jamayat A1 Tabliq supported you. Detainee: The Jamayat A1 Tabliq in Germany is not the same as it is in Pakistan. In Germany they talked about Islam in Pakistan and how beautiful it was over there. They also talk about the big school. They didn’t help me go to Pakistan, but they did tell me a lot about the school. So, I decided to go.

Q. While at the school, you were supported with food and lodging?

A. I said before, they didn’t support me with food. I slept there only one night. They gave me dinner and breakfast. Everything else I paid for myself.

Q. Are you aware that Jamayat A1 Tabliq was associated with or supported terrorism?

A. I didn’t know anything about it. I am not saying they aren’t terrorists, maybe they are, but I wasn’t aware of it.

Summarized Answers ia Response to Questions by the Tribunal Members
Q. When you were in Germany, did the Jamayat A1 Tabliq have an Imam or a Sheik?

A. The JamayatA 1 Tabliq had a mosque,i t is called (inaudible) there is a Imamb ut he not a (inaudible). He stayed in a mosque and sat with other groups. There are two different groups in the mosque, the Jamayat A1 Tabliq and another group. (inaudible)

Q. Did that Imam have the authority to issue Fatwas?

A. That Imam was young. I don’t know if he issued Fatwas or not. I sat with him many times at the mosque and talked, but I never saw him issue a Fatwa.

Q. So you never heard ofa Fatwa for Jihad at any of the mosque yo/t prayed at in Germany?

A. I didn’t hear anything about it.

Q. Did the Pakistan ls say why they arrested you?

A. They told me at first they just wanted to check my citizenship and they asked me a few questions. They were very nice and said they just wanted to send me back to my country. They said they were going to take me to the airport, but they didn’t. They put me in isolation, before mining me over to the Americans.

Q. Did you have something on you that they didn’t like? Or did they just pull you off the bus because you looked German?Is that the only reason you can think of?.

A. I’m not sure. I couldn’t understand them. I looked Irish. They told me they wanted to see my citizenship paperwork.I was asked if I was American or British? I told them I was Turkish, but I lived in Germany. I was then asked if I had any cameras or if I was a journalist? After that, they drove me to another place. They asked me different questions than the Americans. The Americans asked me if I was a terrorist.

Q. Did they ask you if you were al Qaida or Taliban?

A. No. The first time I was asked about al Qaida or the Taiiban was by the Americans, in Pakistan.

Q. How long were you in Pakistan?

A. I went there on the third of October. I was arrested during the first days of Ramadan. I know this because I was fasting. Maybe it was the third or fourth day of Ramadan. Tribunal President: Near the middle of November the third week.

Q. Did you have your Visa with you when the Pakistanis captured you?

A. Yes. I had it. They may have thrown it away, but I have proof. You can ask the German government. I got my Pakistani Visa from the Pakistani Embassy in Germany. I mentioned during my arrest that my Visa was still good. They said they knew it.

Q. The Pakistanis told you they knew?

A. Yes. They told me they had my passport and citizenship paperwork.

Q. As far as you know; the Pakistanis still have it?

A. Yes.

Q. When you were back in Germany, and talking about Jamayat A1 Tabliq. Did you ever become a member of that organization?

A. No, I wasn’t a member. Even though I went to Pakistan, I didn’t become a member. I lived with them for a few weeks in different mosques.

Q. When you got to Pakistan, they only let you stay in their school for one night?

A. It wasn't a school. It was a special (inaudible) protected place. When you went through the gates, the place was large. There was a mosque a, school, and a big library. I didn’t study there. They just gave me a room to stay in for one night. It was a big hutta with several rooms. I went to the office to see about studying, but they told me they couldn’t help me. After that, I went to the Mosque to pray. While I was there, I went to the office, the hutta and the mosque.

Q. After that, you moved on and went to different mosque as round Pakistan?

A. Yes.

Q. You lived with other people and it was a communal living arrangement. One person would buy food one day and someone else would buy food the next day depending on who had money?

A. Pakistan is not an expensive country. Food is very cheap. Two 6r three people would buy fresh bread and other items. They would store the food until it was gone, then someone else would go buy some more. Everyone bought food.

Q. How many other guys were with you?

A. Ten, sometimes thirty. Neverless than ten.

Q. You spent one night at the hotel in the school and the rest of the time

Detainee: Now I remember the name of it. JamayatA I Tabliq School was called Mosul Center. The leaders name was Kaz A (inaudible).

Q. After that one night, the rest of the time, before being taken by the Pakistani authorities, you were moving a round the country?

A. Yes, I moved to different mosque until I was arrested. I went to several mosques. I Enjoyed seeing different things. I would go to the market, and I enjoyed watching what they did with the cobras. I also studied.

Q. So, you were sightseeing when you weren’t studying?

A. I’m not sure what you call it. I would study some and go to the market. In Pakistan, several people who practiced Kung Fu: I saw Ninja and Kung Fu gyms. It was interesting because I didn’t get to see those things in Germany. I was only nineteen; I couldn’t sit in the mosque twenty-four hours a day.

Tribunal member: I would like to talk about Mr. Bilgin for a minute:

Q. You said you were good friends for a while until he got married. You didn’t see him very often?

A. Everything about him, from his clothing to his car changed. His wife was very jealous. I didn’t see much of him after his marriage because he stopped going to the gym and I started studying and working. Three times a week I worked at a factory and twice a week I went to school. I didn’t have much time to go home and relax. I would go from work to the gym. When I got home,i t was time to go to sleep. I had to get up early the next morning. On weekends I would go to the mosque. He didn’t Iike to work. His wife worked.

Q. How often did you see him during that time period? Once a week, once a month, or less than that?

A. Sometimes I saw him twice a week, sometimes twice a month.

Q. Just if you ran into him at the gym or something like that?

A. Sometimes at the gym. Usually if I saw him, it was at the gym.

Q. When you decided you were going to Pakistan to study, you saw him in the mosque after you made that decision and you talked to him about it?

A. Yes, I think I saw him on a Friday prayer. He had started going to the mosque to pray. He said he also made the decision to go to Pakistan to study the Koran. He didn’t tell me that day, but the next day, during the weekend.

Q. Did he actually go to Pakistan with you?

A. No, I mentioned before we had dogs. Selcuk had a lot of dogs. The dogs are only loyal to their owners. If the dogs get loose in the city, they are likely to harm someone. One day, Selcuk’s dogs escaped and one of them bit somebody. In Germany, if a dog bites someone the owner is liable. I didn’t know it, but Selcuk hadn’t paid anything. When we were at the Frankfurt airport, passport control, the German police checked their computers and told Selcuk he had to pay the fine. I don’t remember the amount he owed. Selcuk was told he had to pay it before he could leave Germany. Selcuk asked me if I had the money to pay the bill? I told him I didn’t. They kept his passport and took kim to another room. The police asked me if I was going to stay with Selcuk, or if I was going to leave. I said I was leaving. That was the last time I saw Selcuk. At that time, I didn’t know he was involved in terrorism.

Q. Did you ever travel to Afghanistan when you were in Pakistan? A. I never went to Afghanistan. I didn’t even think about it. If I were going to Afghanistan, I would have got a Visa while I was in Germany. If you had my passport, you verify I had a two month Visa for Pakistan. I didn’t have a Visa for Afghanistan.

Q. How long did you intend to stay in Pakistan?

A. When I left Germany, I planned on staying a month, or maybe a little longer. Since things with the school didn’t work out in Pakistan, it took a bit longer. I was there for about four or five weeks. I was planning on returning to Germany because I had gotten married in Turkey, and I wanted to take my wife to Germany for another ceremony.

Tribunal President: You got there on the third of October, and you were detained approximately on the third or fourth day of Ramadan. That would have been about the twentieth of November. So, that was almost two months that you were in Pakistan. Ramadan started on the sixteenth of November that year.

A. I said before I don’t remember the exact time. I may have made a mistake by about one or two weeks.

Tribunal President: It’s okay, I understand.

[Tribunal President asked if the Detainee had any further evidence to present to the Tribunal]

Detainee: I want to know ifI have to stay here, or ifI can go home?

[The Tribunal President explained the process to the Detainee] Detainee: If I go back home, I will prove that I am innocent. If I learn of any terrorist groups or plots, I will notify the German authorities to show them I don’t support terrorism, so I can sleep well.

Q. Personal Representative, do you have any other evidence to present to this Tribunal?

A. No, Sir.

[The Tribunal was reconvened by the President to state for the record the Translator’s name and to explain the Translator had taken the Oath during the recess when he took over. The Oath was taken outside of the Tribunal room, because at the time, the press and the Detainee were in the Tribunal morn.]

I certify the material contained in this transcript is a true and accurate summary of the testimony given during the proceedings.

Tribunal President

UNCLASSIFIED / FOUO