Sceptical Chymist/Physiological Considerations

PHYSIOLOGICAL

CONSIDERATIONS

Touching

Part of the First Dialogue.

Perceive that divers of my Friends have thought it very strange to hear me speak so irresolvedly, as I have been, wont to do, concerning those things which some take to be the Elements, and others to be the Principles of all mixt Bodies. But I blush not to acknowledge that I much lesse scruple to confess that I Doubt, when I do so, then to profess that I Know what I do not : And I should have much stronger Expectations then I dare yet entertain, to see Philosophy solidly establish't, if men would more carefully distinguish those things that they know, from those that they ignore or do but think, and then explicate clearly the things they conceive they understand, acknowledge ingenuously what it is they ignore, and profess so candidly their Doubts, that the industry of intelligent persons might be set on work to make further enquiries, and the easiness of less discerning Men might not be impos'd on. But because a more particular accompt will probably be expected of my unsatisfyedness not only with the Peripatetick, but with the Chymical Doctrine of the Primitive Ingredients of Bodies : It may possibly serve to satisfy others of the excusableness of my dissatisfaction to peruse the ensuing Relation of what passed a while since at a meeting of persons of several opinions, in a place that need not here be named ; where the subject whereof we have been speaking, was amply and variously discours'd of.

It was on one of the fairest dayes of this Summer that the inquisitive Eleutherius came to invite me to make a visit with him to his friend Carneades. I readily contented to this motion, telling him that if he would but permit me to go first and make an excuse at a place not far off, where I had at that hour appointed to meet, but not about a business either of moment, or that could not well admit of a delay, I would presently wait on him, because of my knowing Carneades to be so conversant with nature and with Furnaces, and so unconfin'd to vulgar Opinions, that he would probably by some ingenious Paradox or other, give our mindes at least a pleasing Exercise, and perhaps enrich them with some solid instruction. Eleutherius then first going with me to the place where my Apology was to be made, I accompanied him to the lodging of Carneades, where when we were come, we were told by the Servants, that he was retired with a couple of Friends ( whose names they also told us ) to one of the Arbours in his Garden, to enjoy under its coole shades a delightful protection from the yet troublesome heat of the Sun.

Eleutherius being perfectly acquainted with that Garden immediately led me to the Arbour, and relying on the intimate familiarity that had been long cherish'd betwixt him and Carneades ; in spight of my Reluctancy to what might look like an intrusion upon his privacy, drawing me by the hand, he abruptly entered the Arbour, where we found Carneades, Philoponus and Themistius, sitting close about a little round Table, on which besides paper, pen, and inke, there lay two or three open Books ; Carneades appeared not at all troubled at this surprise, but rising from the Table received his Friend with open looks and armes, and welcoming me also with his wonted freedom and civility, invited us to rest our selves by him, which, as soon as we had exchanged with his two Friends ( who were ours also ) the civilities accustomed on such occasions, we did. And presently after we had seated our selves, shutting the Books that lay open, and turning to us with a smiling countenance seemed ready to begin some such unconcerning discourse as is wont to pass or rather waste the time in promiscuous companies.

But Eleutherius guessing at what he meant to do, prevented him by telling him, I perceive Carneades by the books that you have been now shutting, and much more by the posture wherein I found Persons qualifi'd to discourse of serious matters, and so accustom'd to do it, that you three were before our coming, engag'd in some Philosophical conference, which I hope you will either prosecute, and allow us to be partakers of, in recompence of the freedome we have us'd in presuming to surprise you, or else give us leave to repair the injury we should otherwise do you, by leaving you to the freedom we have interrupted, and punishing our selves for our boldness by depriving our selves of the happiness of your company. With these last words he and I rose up, as if we meant to be gone, But Carneades suddenly laying hold on his arme, and stopping him by it, smileingly told him, We are not so forward to lose good company as you seem to imagine ; especially since you are pleas'd to desire to be present at what we shall say ; about such a Subject as that You found us considering. For that, being the number of the Elements, Principles, or Materiall Ingredients of Bodies, is an enquiry whose truth is of that Importance, and of that Difficulty, that it may as well deserve as require to be searched into by such skilfull Indagators of Nature as your selves. And therefore we sent to invite the bold and acute Leucippus to lend us some light by his Atomical Paradox, upon which we expected such pregnant hints, that 'twas not without a great deal of trouble that we had lately word brought us that he was not to be found ; and we had likewise begg'd the Assistance of your presence and thoughts, had not the messenger we employ'd to Leucippus inform'd us, that as he was going, he saw you both pass by towards another part of the Town ; And this frustrated expectation of Leucippus his company, who told me but last night that he would be ready to give me a meeting where I pleas'd to day, having very long suspended our conference about the freshly mention'd Subject, it was so newly begun when you came in, that we shall scarce need to repeat any thing to acquaint you With what has pass'd betwixt us before your arrival, so that I cannot but look upon it as a fortunate Accident that you should come so seasonably, to be not hearers alone, but we hope Interlocutors at our conference. For we shall not only allow of your presence at it but desire your Assistance in it ; which I adde both for other reasons, and because though these learned Gentlemen ( sayes he, turning to his two friends ) need not fear to discourse before any Auditory, provided it be intelligent enough to understand them, yet for my part ( continues he with a new smile ), I shall not dare to vent my unpremeditated thoughts before two such Criticks, unless by promising to take your turnes of speaking, You will allow Me mine of quarrelling, with what has been laid. He and his friends added divers things to convince us that they were both desirous that we should hear them, and resolved against our doing so, unless we allowed them sometimes to hear us. Elutherius after having a while fruitlesly endeavoured to obtain leave to be silent promis'd he would not be so alwayes, provided that he were permitted according to the freedom of his Genious and Principles to side with one of them in the managing of one Argument, and, if he saw cause, with his Antagonist, in the Prosecution of another, without being confin'd to stick to any one party or Opinion, which was after some debate accorded him. But I conscious to my own Disability's told them resolutely that I was as much more willing as more fit to be a hearer then a speaker, among such knowing Persons, and on so abstruse a Subject. And that therefore I beseech'ed them without neccessitating me to proclaim my weaknesses, to allow me to lessen them by being a silent Auditor of their Discourses : to suffer me to be at which I could present them no motive, save that their instructions would make them in me a more intelligent Admirer. I added, that I desir'd not to be idle whilst they were imploy'd, but would if they pleas'd, by writing down in short hand what should be delivered, preserve Discourses that I knew would merit to be lasting. At first Carneades and his two friends utterly rejected this motion ; and all that my Resoluteness to make use of my ears, not tongue, at their debates, could do, was to make them acquiesce in the Proposition of Eleutherius, who thinking himself concern'd, because he brought me thither, to afford me some faint assistance, was content that I should register their Arguments, that I might be the better able after the conclusion of their conference to give them my sence upon the Subject of it, ( The number of Elements or Principles : ) which he promis'd I should do at the end of the present Debates, if time would permit, or else at our next meeting. And this being by him undertaken in my name, though without my consent, the company would by no means receive my Protestation against it, but calling, all at once, their eyes on Carneades, they did by that and their unanimous silence, invite to him to begin ; which ( after a short pause, during which turn'd himself to Eleutherius and me ) he did in this manner.

Notwithstanding, the subtile reasonings I have met with in the books of the Paripateticks, and the pretty experiments that have been shew'd me in the Laboratories of Chymists, I am of so diffident, or dull a Nature, as to think that if neither of them can bring more cogent arguments to evince the truth of their assertion then are wont to be brought ; a Man may rationally enough retain some doubts concerning the very number of those material Ingredients of mixt bodies, which some would have us call Elements, and others principles. Indeed when I considered that the Tenents concerning the Elements are as considerable amongst the Doctrines of natural Philosophy as the Elements themselves are among the bodies of the Universe, I expected to find those Opinions solidly establish'd upon which so many others are superstructed. But when I took the pains impartially to examine the bodies themselves that are said to result from the blended Elements, and to torture them into a confession of their constituent Principles, was quickly induc'd to think that the number of the Elements has been contended about by Philosophers with more earnestness then success. This unsatisfiedness of mine has been much wonder'd at, by these two Gentlemen ( at which words he pointed at Themistius and Philoponus ) who though they differ almost as much betwixt themselves about the question we are to consider, as I do from either of them, yet they both agree very well in this, that there is a determinate number of such ingredients as I was just now speaking of, and that what that number is, I say not, maybe ( for what may not such as they perswade ? ) but is wont to be clearly enough demonstrated both by Reason and Experience. This has occasion'd our present Conference. For our Discourse this afternoon, having fallen from one subject to another, and at length setl'd on this, they proffer'd to demonstrate to me, each of them the truth of his opinion, out of both the Topicks that I have freshly nam'd. But on the former ( that of Reason strictly so taken ) we declin'd insisting at the present, lest we should not have time enough before supper to go thorough the Reasons and Experiments too. The latter of which we unanimously thought the most requisite to be seriously examin'd. I must desire you then to take notice Gentlemen ( continued Carneades ) that my present business doth not oblige me so to declare my Own on on the Subject in question, as to assert or deny the truth either of the Peripatetick, or the Chymical Doctrine concerning the number of the Elements, but only to shew you that neither of these Doctrines hath been satisfactorily proved by the arguments commonly alledged on its behalf. So that if I really discern ( as perhaps I think I do ) that there may be a more rational account then ordinary, given of one of these opinions, I am left free to declare my self of it, notwithstanding my present engagement, it being obvious to all your observation, that a solid truth may be generally maintained by no other, then incompetent Arguments. And to this Declaration I hope it will be needless to add, that my task obliges me not to answer the Arguments that may be drawn either for Themistius or Philoponus's Opinion from the Topick of reason, as opposed to experiments ; since 'tis these only that I am to examine and all these neither, but such of them alone as either of them shall think fit to insist on and as have hitherto been wont to be brought either to prove that 'tis the four Peripatetick Elements, or that 'tis the three Chymical Principles that all compounded bodies consist of. These things ( adds Carneades ) I thought my self obliged to premise, partly lest you should do these Gentlemen ( pointing at Themistius and Philoponus, and smiling on them ) the injury of measuring their parts by the arguments they are ready to propose, the lawes of Our Conference confining them to make use of those that the vulgar of Philosophers ( for even of them there is a vulgar ) has drawn up to their hands ; and partly, that you should not condemn me of presumption for disputing against persons over whom I can hope for no advantage, that I must not derive from the nature, or rules of our controversy, wherein I have but a negative to defend, and wherein too I am like on several occasions to have the Assistance of one of my disagreeing adversaries against the other.

Philoponus and Themistius soon returned this complement with civilities of the like nature, in which Eleutherius perceiving them engaged, to prevent the further loss of that time of which they were not like to have very much to spare, he minded them that their present businesse was not to exchange complements, but Arguments : and then addressing his speech to Carneades, I esteem it no small happinesse ( saies he ) that I am come here so luckily this Evening. For I have been long disquieted with Doubts concerning this very subject which you are now ready to debate. And since a Question of this importance is to be now discussed by persons that maintain such variety of opinions concerning it, and are both so able to enquire after truth, and so ready to embrace it by whomsoever and on what occasion soever it is presented them ; I cannot but promise my self that I shall before we part either lose my Doubts or the hopes of ever finding them resolved : Eleutherius paused not here ; but to prevent their answer, added almost in the same breath ; and I am not a little pleased to find that you are resolved on this occasion to insist rather on Experiments then Syllogismes. For I, and no doubt You, have long observed, that those Dialectical subtleties that the Schoolmen too often employ about Physiological Mysteries, are wont much more to declare the wit of him that uses them, then increase the knowledge or remove the doubts of sober lovers of truth. And such captious subtleties do indeed often puzzle and sometimes silence men, but rarely satisfy them. Being like the tricks of Jugglers, whereby men doubt not but they are cheated, though oftentimes they cannot declare by what flights they are imposed on. And therefore I think you have done very wisely to make it your businesse to consider the Phaenomena relating to the present Question, which have been afforded by experiments, especially since it might seem injurious to our senses, by whose mediation we acquire so much of the knowledge we have of things corporal, to have recourse to far-fetched and abstracted Ratiocination, to know what are the sensible ingredients of those sensible things that we daily see and handle, and are supposed to have the liberty to untwist ( if I may so speak ) into the primitive bodies they consist of. He annexed that he wished therefore they would no longer delay his expected satisfaction, if they had not, as he feared they had, forgotten something preparatory to their debate and that was to lay down what should be all along understood by the word Principle or Element. Carneades thank'd him for his admonition, but told him that they had not been unmindful of so requisite a thing. But that being Gentlemen and very far from the litigious humour of loving to wrangle about words or terms or notions as empty ; they had before his coming in, readily agreed promiscuously to use when they pleased, Elements and Principles as terms equivalent : and to understand both by the one and the other, those primitive and simple Bodies of which the mixt ones are said to be composed, and into which they are ultimately resolved. And upon the same account ( he added ) we agreed to discourse of the opinions to be debated, as we have found them maintained by the Generality of the assertors of the four Elements of the one party, and of those that receive the three Principles on the other, without tying our selves to enquire scrupulously what notion either Aristotle or Paracelsus, or this or that Interpreter, or follower of either of those great persons, framed of Elements or Principles ; our design being to examine, not what these or those writers thought or taught, but what we find to be the obvious and most general opinion of those, who are willing to be accounted Favourers of the Peripatetick or Chymical Doctrine, concerning this subject.

I see not ( saies Eleutherius ) why you might not immediately begin to argue, if you were but agreed which of your two friendly Adversaries shall be first heard. And it being quickly resolv'd on that Themistius should first propose the Proofs for his Opinion, because it was the antienter, and the more general, he made not the company expect long before he thus addressed himself to Eleutherius, as to the Person interessed in the dispute. If you have taken sufficient notice of the late Confession which was made by Carneades, and which ( though his Civility dressed it up in complementall Expressions ) was exacted of him by his Justice, I suppose You will be easily made sensible, that I engage in this Controversie with great and peculiar Disadvantages, besides those which his Parts and my Personal Disabilities would bring to any other cause to be maintained by me against him. For he justly apprehending the force of truth, though speaking by no better a tongue then mine, has made it the chief condition of our Duell, that I should lay aside the best Weapons I have, and those I can best handle ; Whereas if I were allowed the freedom, in pleading for the four Elements, to employ the Arguments suggested to me by Reason to demonstrate them, I should almost as little doubt of making You a Proselyte to those unsever'd Teachers, Truth and Aristotle, as I do of your Candour and your Judgment. And I hope you will however consider, that that great Favorite and Interpreter of Nature, Aristotle, who was ( as his Organum witnesses ) the greatest Master of Logick that ever liv'd, disclaim'd the course taken by other petty Philosophers ( Ancient and Modern ) who not attending the Coherence and Consequences of their Opinions, are more sollicitous to make each particular Opinion plausible independently upon the the rest, then to frame them all so, as not only to be consistent together, but to support each other. For that great Man in his vast and comprehensive Intellect, so fram'd each of his Notions ; that being curiously adapted into one Systeme, they need not each of them any other defence then that which their mutual Coherence gives them : As 'tis in an Arch, where each single stone, which if sever'd from the rest would be perhaps defenceless, is sufficiently secur'd by the solidity and entireness of the whole Fabrick of which it is a part. How justly this may be apply'd to the present case, I could easily shew You, if I were permitted to declare to You, how harmonious Aristotles Doctrine of the Elements is with his other Principles of Philosophy ; and how rationally he has deduc'd their number from that of the combinations of the four first Qualities from the kinds of simple Motion belonging to simple bodies, and from I know not how many other Principles and Phaenomena of Nature, which so conspire with his Doctrine of the Elements, that they mutually strengthen and support each other. But since 'tis forbidden me to insist on Reflections of this kind, I must proceed to tell You, that though the Assertors of the four Elements value Reason so highly, and are furnish'd with Arguments enough drawn from thence, to be satisfi'd that there must be four Elements, though no Man had ever yet made any sensible tryal to discover their Number, yet they are not destitute of Experience to satisfie others that are wont to be more sway'd by their senses then their Reason. And I shall proceed to consider the testimony of Experience, when I shall have first advertis'd You, that if Men were as perfectly rational as 'tis to be wish'd they were, this sensible way of Probation would be as needless as 'tis wont to be imperfect. For it is much more high and Philosophical to discover things a priore, then a posteriore. And therefore the Peripateticks have not been very sollicitous to gather Experiments to prove their Doctrine, contenting themselves with a few only, to satisfie those that are not capable of a Nobler Conviction. And indeed they employ Experiments rather to illustrate then to demonstrate their Dotrines, as Astronomers use Sphaeres of pastboard, to descend to the capacities of such as must be taught by their senses, for want of being arriv'd to a clear apprehension of purely Mathematical Notions and Truths. I speak thus Eleutherius ( adds Themistius ) only to do right to Reason, and not out of Diffidence of the Experimental proof I am to alledge. For though I shall name but one, yet it is such a one as will make all other appear as needless as it self will be found Satisfactory. For if You but consider a piece of green-Wood burning in a Chimney, You will readily discern in the disbanded parts of it the four Elements, of which we teach It and other mixt bodies to be compos'd. The fire discovers it self in the flame by its own light ; the smoke by ascending to the top of the chimney, and there readily vanishing into air, like a River losing it self in the Sea, sufficiently manifests to what Element it belongs and, gladly returnes. The water in its own form boyling and hissing at the ends of the burning Wood betrayes it self to more then one of our senses ; and the ashes by their weight, their firmess, and their dryness, put it past doubt that they belong to the Element of Earth. If I spoke ( continues Themistius ) to less knowing Persons, I would perhaps make some Excuse for building upon such an obvious and easie Analysis, but 'twould be, I fear, injurious, not to think such an Apology needless to You, who are too judicious either to think it necessary that Experiments to prove obvious truths should be farr fetch'd or to wonder that among so many mixt Bodies that are compounded of the four Elements, some of them should upon a slight Analysis manifestly exhibite the Ingredients they consist of. Especially since it is very agreeable to the Goodness of Nature, to disclose, even in some of the most obvious Experiments that Men make, a Truth so important, and so requisite to be taken notice of by them. Besides that our Analysis by how much the more obvious we make it, by so much the more suittable it will be to the Nature of that Doctrine which 'tis alledged to prove, which being as clear and intelligible to the Understanding as obvious to the sense, tis no marvail the learned part of Mankind should so long and so generally imbrace it, For this Doctrine is very different from the whimseys of Chymists and other Modern Innovators, of whose Hypotheses we may observe, as Naturalists do of less perfect Animals, that as they are hastily form'd, so they are commonly short liv'd. For so these, as they are often fram'd in one week, are perhaps thought fit to be laughed at the next ; and being built perchance but upon two or three Experiments are destroyed by a third or fourth, whereas the doctrine of the four Elements was fram'd by Aristotle after he had leasurely considered those Theories of former Philosophers, which are now with great applause revived, as discovered by these latter ages ; And had so judiciously detected and supplyed the Errors and defects of former Hypotheses concerning the Elements, that his Doctrine of them has been ever since deservedly embraced by the letter'd part of Mankind : All the Philosophers, that preceded him having in their several ages contributed to the compleatness of this Doctrine, as those of succeeding times have acquiesc'd in it. Nor has an Hypothesis so deliberately and maturely established been called in Question till in the last Century Paracelsus and some few other sooty Empiricks, rather then ( as they are fain to call themselves ) Philosophers, having their eyes darken'd, and their Brains troubl'd with the smoke of their own Furnaces, began to rail at the Peripatetick Doctrine, which they were too illiterate to understand, and to tell the credulous World, that they could see but three Ingredients in mixt Bodies ; which to gain themselves the repute of Inventors, they endeavoured to disguise by calling them, instead of Earth, and Fire, and Vapour, Salt, Sulphur, and Mercury ; to which they gave the canting title of Hypostatical Principles : but when they came to describe them, they shewed how little they understood what they meant by them, by disagreeing as much from one another, as from the truth they agreed in opposing : For they deliver their Hypotheses as darkly as their Processes ; and 'tis almost as impossible for any sober Man to find their meaning, as 'tis for them to find their Elixir. And indeed nothing has spread their Philosophy, but their great Brags and undertakings ; notwithstanding all which, ( sayes Themistius smiling ) I scarce know any thing they have performed worth wondering at, save that they have been able to draw Philoponus to their Party, and to engage him to the Defence of an unintelligible Hypothesis, who knowes so well as he does, that Principles ought to be like Diamonds, as well very clear, as perfectly solid.

Themistius having after these last words declared by his silence, that he had finished his Discourse, Carneades addressing himself, as his Adversary had done, to Eleutherius, returned this Answer to it. I hop'd for Demonstration, but I perceive Themistius hopes to put me off with a Harangue, wherein he cannot have given me a greater Opinion of his Parts, then he has given me Distrust for his Hypothesis, since for it even a Man of such Learning can bring no better Arguments. The Rhetorical part of his Discourse, though it make not the least part of it, I shall say nothing to, designing to examine only the Argumentative part, and leaving, it to Philoponus to answer those passages wherein either Paracelsus or Chymists are concern'd : I shall observe to You, that in what he has said besides, he makes it his Business to these two things. The one to propose and make out an Experiment to demonstrate the common Opinion about the four Elements ; And the other, to insinuate divers things which he thinks may repair the weakness of his Argument, from Experience, and upon other Accounts bring some credit to the otherwise defenceless Doctrine he maintains.

To begin then with his Experiment of the burning Wood, it seems to me to be obnoxious to not a few considerable Exceptions.

And first, if I would now deal rigidly with my Adversary, I might here make a great Question of the very way of Probation which he and others employ, without the least scruple, to evince, that the Bodies commonly call'd mixt, are made up of Earth, Air, Water, and Fire, which they are pleas'd also to call Elements ; namely that upon the suppos'd Analysis made by the fire, of the former sort of Concretes, there are wont to emerge Bodies resembling those which they take for the Elements. For not to Anticipate here what I foresee I shall have occasion to insist on, when I come to discourse with Philoponus concerning the right that fire has to pass for the proper and Universal Instrument of Analysing mixt Bodies, not to Anticipate that, I say, if I were dispos'd to wrangle, I might alledge, that by Themistius his Experiment it would appear rather that those he calls Elements, are made of those he calls mixt Bodies, then mix'd Bodies of the Elements. For in Themistius's Analyz'd Wood, and in other Bodies dissipated and alter'd by the fire, it appears, and he confesses, that which he takes for Elementary Fire and Water, are made out of the Concrete ; but it appears not that the Concrete was made up of Fire and Water. Nor has either He, or any Man, for ought I know, of his perswasion, yet prov'd that nothing can be obtained from a Body by the fire that was not Pre-existent in it.

At this unexpected objection, not only Themistius, but the rest of the company appear'd not a little surpriz'd but after a while Philoponus conceiving his opinion, as well as that of Aristotle, concern'd in that Objection, You cannot sure ( sayes he to Carneades ) propose this Difficulty, not to call it Cavill, otherwise then as an Exercise of wit, and not as laying any weight upon it. For how can that be separated from a thing that was not existent in it. When, for instance, a Refiner mingles Gold and Lead, and exposing this Mixture upon a Cuppell to the violence of the fire, thereby separates it into pure and resulgent Gold and Lead ( which driven off together with the Dross of the Gold is thence call'd Lithargyrium Auri ) can any man doubt that sees thest two so differing substances separated from the Mass, that they were existent in it before it was committed to the fire.

I should ( replies Carneades ) allow your Argument to prove something, if, as Men see the Refiners commonly take before hand both Lead and Gold to make the Mass you speak of, so we did see Nature pull down a parcell of the Element of Fire, that is fancy'd to be plac'd I know not how many thousand Leagues off, contiguous to the Orb of the Moon, and to blend it with a quantity of each of the three other Elements, to compose every mixt Body, upon whose Resolution the Fire presents us with Fire, and Earth, and the rest. And let me add, Philoponus, that to make your Reasoning cogent, it must be first prov'd, that the fire do's only take the Elementary Ingredients asunder, without otherwise altering them. For else 'tis obvious, that Bodies may afford substances which were not pre-existent in them ; as Flesh too long kept produces Magots, and old Cheese Mites, which I suppose you will not affirm to be Ingredients of those Bodies. Now that fire do's not alwayes barely separate the Elementary parts, but sometimes at least alter also the Ingredients of Bodies, if I did not expect ere long a better occasion to prove it, I might make probable out of your very Instance, wherein there is nothing Elementary separated by the great violence of the Refiners fire : the Gold and Lead which are the two Ingredients separated upon the Analysis being confessedly yet perfectly mixt Bodies, and the Litharge being Lead indeed ; but such Lead as is differing in consistence and other Qualities from what it was before. To which I must add that I have sometimes seen, and so questionlesse have you much oftener, some parcells of Gasse adhering to the Test or Cuppel, and this Glass though Emergent as well as the Gold or Litharge upon your Analysis, you will not I hope allow to have been a third Ingredient of the Mass out of which the fire produc'd it.

Both Philoponus and Thermistius were about to reply when Eleutherius apprehending that the Prosccution of this Dispute would take up time, which might be better employ'd, thought fit to prevent them by saying to Carneades : You made at least half a Promise, when you first propos'd this Objection, that you would not ( now at least ) insist on it, nor indeed does it seem to be of absolute necessity to your cause that you should. For though you should grant that there are Elements, it would not follow that there must be precisely four. And therefore I hope you will proceed to acquaint us with your other and more considerable Objections against Themistius's Opinion, especially since there is so great a Disproportion in Bulke betwixt the Earth, Water and Air, on the one part, and those little parcells of resembling substances, that the fire separates from Concretes on the other part, that I can scarce think that you are serious, when to lose no advantage against your Adversary, you seem to deny it to be rational, to conclude these great simple Bodies to be the Elements, and not the Products of compounded ones.

What you alledge ( replies Carneades ) of the Vastness of the Earth and Water, has long since made me willing to allow them to be the greatest and chief Masses of Matter to be met with here below : But I think I could shew You, if You would give me leave, that this will prove only that the Elements, as You call them, are the chief Bodies that make up the neighbouring part of the World, but not that they are such Ingredients as every mixt Body must consist of. But since You challenge me of something of a Promise, though it be not an entire one, Yet I shall willingly perform it. And indeed I intended not when I first mention'd this Objection, to insist on it at present against Themistius, ( as I plainly intimated in my way of proposing it : ) only desirous to let you see, that though I discern'd my Advantages, yet I was willing to forego some of them, rather then appear a rigid Adversary of a Cause so weak, that it may with safety be favourably dealt with. But I must here profess, and desire You to take Notice of it, that though I pass on to another Argument, it is not because I think this first invalid. For You will find in the Progress of our Dispute, that I had some reason to question the very way of Probation imploy'd both by Peripateticks and Chymists, to evince the being and number of the Elements. For that there are such, and that they are wont to be separated by the Analysis made by Fire, is indeed taken for granted by both Parties, but has not ( for ought I know ) been so much as plausibly attempted to be proved by either. Hoping then that when we come to that part of our Debate, wherein Considerations relating to this Matter are to be treated of, you will remember what I have now said, and that I do rather for a while suppose, then absolutely grant the truth of what I have question'd, I will proceed to another Objection.

And hereupon Eleutherius having promis'd him not to be unmindfull, when time should serve, of what he had declar'd.

I consider then ( sayes Carneades ) in the next place, that there are divers Bodies out of which Themistius will not prove in haste, that there can be so many Elements as four extracted by the Fire. And I should perchance trouble him if I should ask him what Peripatetick can shew us, ( I say not, all the four Elements, for that would be too rigid a Question, but ) anyone of them extracted out of Gold by any degree of Fire whatsoever. Nor is Gold the only Bodie in Nature that would puzzle an Aristotelian, that is no more to analyze by the Fire into Elementary Bodies, since, for ought I have yet observ'd, both Silver and calcin'd Venetian Talck, and some other Concretes, not necessary here to be nam'd, are so fixt, that to reduce any of them into four Heterogeneous Substances has hitherto prov'd a Task much too hard, not only for the Disciples of Aristotle, but those of Vulcan, at least, whilst the latter have employ'd only Fire to make the Analysis.

The next Argument ( continues Car'neades ) that I shall urge against Themistiuss Opinion shall be this, That as there are divers Bodies whose Analysis'' by Fire cannot reduce them into so many Heterogeneous Substances or Ingregredients as four, so there are others which may be reduc'd into more, as the Blood ( and divers other parts ) of Men and other Animals, which yield when analyz'd five distinct Substances, Phlegme, Spirit, Oyle, Salt and Earth, as Experience has shewn us in distilling Mans Blood, Harts-Horns, and divers other Bodies that belonging to the Animal-Kingdom abound with not uneasily sequestrable Salt.