Page:Notes and Queries - Series 12 - Volume 7.djvu/384

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NOTES AND QUERIES. [12 s. viz. OCT. w, 1020.

mother. He further said that Lord Nelso 11 was godfather to his father, who was, i n consequence, named Horatio. It seems highly probable therefore that President Joseph Herbert of Nevis, who died 1767, was identical with the Joseph Herbert who was living in 1721, and was son of Thomas Her- bert of Nevis, then deceased, but of course it is not absolutely certain.

The object of my previous communication was to prove that Edward Herbert of Bristol and Montserrat, merchant, was not an an- cestor of the Nevis Herberts.

I must apologize for the error concerning the Christian name of the Attorney -General, to which attention has been called. Writing hurriedly I described him as Robert Hutche- son, but his name was correctly entered in my notes as Archibald.

CHARLES H. THOMPSON.

HARVEY DE LEON (12 S. vii. 270). MR. J. BLAKE BUTLER'S query is rather vague. What family does he mean by "the Hervey family of Norfolk and Suffolk ? " There are and always have been scores of families of that name belonging to each county, and they probably came not from one common ancestor of that name but from several. I am at present tracing about twenty of those families back into the fifteenth century, and hope to reduce the number a little before I reach it by means of common ancestors., but the reduction will not be great. As one goes on backwards from the fifteenth century towards the Norman Conquest, the reduction will go on, but it is not likely that even if one could get right back to the Conquest they would all be reduced to one man. There are hundreds of Herveys of the twelfth, thirteenth and fourteenth centuries from whom Hervey or Harvey families may be descended, and there is no necessity to hang them all on to Hervey de Leon or any other great man. Of course they all have a Norman ancestor because theirs is a Norman name. But Normans with the personal name of Hervey were very numerous, as any early list will show, and therefore there is no necessity to go to this or that big man and hang your pedigree on to him.

MR. BUTLER may feel quite certain that there is no proof of any sort or kind that "the Hervey family " or any other Hervey family is descended from Hervey de Leon. If this or that family " is said " to have come from this or that man, and if nothing more can be brought forward, then one may feel perfectly certain that there is no evidence

for the descent claimed, "is said " being the formula always used for any statement that has no evidence to support it. The only way to get up to a remote ancestor, Norman or otherwise, is to go up to him as you would. go up to the top step of a ladder, i.e., step by step till you reach him. But to start by singling out a big man because he is big, and then hang your pedigree on to him without really reaching him, is absurd.

Spelling is nothing. It is only a matter of date and fashion that changes with date. But I think Harvey de Leon should have been written Hervey, because Hervey never monies in till the fifteenth century.

S. H. A. H.

LONDON STREET "GROTTOES" (12 S. vii. 209, 237, 238). I can remember these "grottoes " well in the days of my boy- hood. They came in with the oyster shells. There were always plenty of youngsters ready to relieve fish-dealers and others of these shells for the purpose of building grottoes. The grotto, in my day, was isually built up against a wall in a shape not unlike a bee-hive or a section of one. Occasionally, pieces of coloured glass or an ornament of some kind would be utilized to heighten the appearance of the edifice. In turns some of the young builders would be told off to importune pedestrians to " Remember the grotto ! " the while holding out a shell for the importuned to place a. coin therein. The doggers!, if I remember it rightly, which was repeated at each importunity, ran thus :

Please remember the grotto I

Only once a year.

Father's gone to sea,

Mother's gone to fetch him back,

Please remember me !

If this supplication did not prevail, they- were wont to add a further tag to this effect :

Half-penny won't hurt you,

Penny won't break you,

Twopence won't put you in the Workhouse!

To hear this given in the vernacular was indeed very amusing. I have been subjected to their attentions many times in later years, and have got the lines in mind.

With the funds collected it was cus- tomary to buy coloured fires ; sometimes fireworks. The local contributors, if so disposed, were invited to watch the pyro- technic display, when darkness set in. Then the grottoes would be illuminated by means of lighted candles placed in the interior,,-