Page:Notes and Queries - Series 11 - Volume 12.djvu/432

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NOTES AND QUERIES, m s. xn. NOV. 27, 1915.

FRANCE AND ENGLAND QUARTERLY : ARMS OF IRELAND (11 S. x. 281, 336, 396, 417, 458, 510 ; xi. 50, 74, 96, 138, 177, 232 ; xii. 284, 370). I am sorry that at p. 370 I asked MR. GALBREATH to give me a more definite reference to the work by Dr. J. H. Round, ' Peerage and Pedigree,' which he had cited (ante, p. 284), as I was unable to find it at the British Museum, for one of your old correspondents, MR. G. L. APPERSON, has kindly sent me direct the name of the publishers (Nisbets) and the date (1910), by means of which, on a further journey to the British Museum, I discovered what I wanted.

It is unavoidable, perhaps, that sub- sidiary, but equally interesting questions should often arise out of those originally submitted to ' N. & Q.' It is so in this case ; and the illustrations given by MR. WHITE (11 S. xi. 96) in his suggestion as to arms of dominion or territorial arms have been criticized by MR. GALBREATH (ante, p. 284).

MR. GALBREATH doubts whether in the instance given of Robert de Vere, ninth Earl of Oxford, who had been granted an augmentation of arms by Richard II., those arms were referable to, or intended to imply, any recognition of his lordship of Ireland. In support of this he cites Dr. J. H. Round's 1 Peerage and Pedigree,' vol. ii. p. 353,

" for the assurance that they have nothing to do with Ireland at all ; were granted before Robert de Vere was made Duke of Ireland ; and were, in fact, only the arms assigned to St. Edmund with a difference."

Is not MR. GALBREATH a little too sweeping ill this statement ? Dr. Round, in the chapter in which the above quotation occurs, was criticizing very strongly Mr. Fox-Davies's handling, and want of knowledge, of some of the heraldic subjects treated of in one of his books (I had not time to read the whole of the article, but I gathered this much) ; and he found fault in particular with Mr. Fox-Davies for having stated that Richard II. in 1386, when he created Robert de Vere Duke of Ireland, had granted him as an augmentation " the arms of Ireland," there described as Azure, three crowns or, within a bordure argent.

Dr. Round denied that the grant was made when the earl was created Duke of Ireland, and stated that it was at an earlier date, and, further, questioned the accuracy of the writer in so " glibly " speaking of the above arms as the " arms of Ireland," pointing out that they were, differenced by a bordure, the arms of St. Edmund, " one of the most popular saints of England."

Dr. Round is, no doubt, correct in saying that these arms were not granted to Robert de Vere at the time that he was created Duke of Ireland, for if Doyle (' Official Baronage,' vol. ii. p. 729), the authority quoted by MR. WHITE, be correct in his dates, this grant of arms was made on 3 Jan., 1386, whereas De Vere was not created Duke of Ireland until 13 October of the same year. This, however, is there stated to be " in exchange '* i.e., probably, in exchange, or in sub- stitution, for the Marquisate of Dublin, to which Robert de Vere had been preferred on 11 Nov., 1385. So that there does seem to be rather a strong Irish connexion in it all.

How far, then, is Mr. Fox-Davies to be censured for calling these arms the " arms of Ireland " ? I hold no brief for Mr. Fox- Davies no doubt he can take care of himself ; nor do I approve of the " glibness," or cocksureness, with which, perhaps, too many of the younger heraldic writers of the present day launch their opinions. But other writers have expressed their doubts upon this point.

It is well known, of course, as Dr. Round says, that the arms Azure, three open crowns or, were those ascribed to H St. Edmund. Dr. Round further makes merry over Mr. Fox-Davies's having apparently confused them with the " cross and martlets " that had been assigned to King Edward the Confessor, which arms Richard II. not only impaled himself, but granted, with or without differences, to the Mowbrays and others members of his own family connexions. If, then, the grant to Robert de Vere were anything analogous to these transactions, one would think that it would militate against the suggestion that such arms had any Irish significance. But were there any arms at all referable to Ireland existing at that period ? The golden harp on an azure field, which now represents Ireland in our royal arms, was not known at that time, and was not generally used before Tudor times. Woodward (' Heraldry, British and Foreign,' 1896, vol. i. pp. 399-400) states that there has been some little uncer- tainty as to the exact time and the reason of the adoption of this coat as the national arms, saying that the Irish harp crowned appears as a badge on Elizabeth's second Great Seal (1586-1603), and that at her funeral was carried the banner of Ireland Azure, a harp crowned with an open crown or, and stringed argent. It is noticeable that this was an " open " crown not a Tudor one and that they were " open " crowns which were granted to Robert de Vere. It seems