Page:MALAYSIA BILL RHODESIA AND NYASALAND BILL (1) (Hansard, 11 Juli 1963).djvu/11

 to Southern Rhodesia until substantial progress is made towards meeting African aspirations.

Mr. Wall Could the right hon. Gentleman define"substantial progress" from the point of view of his own party? In other words, if the Labour Party were in power, what conditions would it need before giving Southern Rhodesia independence?

Mr. Bottomley I shall come to that. I will not in any way evade questions of that kind.

With regard to the independence of Southern Rhodesia and Northern Rhodesia's future, two main problems were discussed at informal conferences outside the official business of the conference at Victoria Falls. Agreement was reached on the future of Northern Rhodesia between the two African leaders, Mr. Kaunda and Mr. Nkumbula The First Secretary also agreed that there was a need for a new constitution—he mentioned this this afternoon—providing for internal self-government as soon as possible.

I accept the assurance of the First Secretary that when he says"as soon as possible" he means it. I do not know whether it is possible for him to name a date by which it ought to be reached. I realise the difficulties to which the First Secretary referred. Indeed, there is a ministerial committee, made up of members of both the United National Independence Party and the African National Congress, which drafted a new constitution providing for an enlarged legislative assembly elected on the basis of universal franchise.

There are, however, two obstacles which have to be overcome. The first is that the heavy rains which occur between November and March will make it very difficult for electioneering. In spite of the demands of Mr. Kaunda's party, U.N.I.P., that there should be an election under the new constitution before October, I think that for these reasons it may be difficult to do that. It would also be very difficult to prepare for universal suffrage before that time.

The second obstacle is that if there were a general election it would probably reduce the already small representation of Mr. Nkumbula's party. In any case, this party is, to some extent, supported by votes from the U.F.P. Therefore, it is not too obvious that he wants elections at an early date. There is considerable hostility between the rank and file of the two parties which results in outbreaks of violence and disruption. The coalition of the two parties is precarious and further difficulties may cause it to break up. However, I join the First Secretary in the hope that Northern Rhodesia will overcome these initial difficulties and will settle down to face the real problems which will be her concern when independence has been fully achieved.

As the First Secretary said, as a result of the conference at Victoria Falls, two main committees have been appointed to carry out the task of dismantling the Federation: one for dissolving the Federation and the other for considering inter-territorial questions, particularly economic links. The committee for dissolving the Federation will work out the detailed arrangements for the reversion of federal powers to the three territories.

The first stage in all this is the Bill before us. This gives powers to Her Majesty's Government to make provision for the dissolution of the Federation by Order in Council. In doing this, they have agreed that decisions must be reached on the apportionment and transfer of property, rights, liabilities, powers or duties of the Federation or the Government or Legislature of the Federation; the smooth transition of the public and other services of the Federation to ensure their successful working; on matters pending before the courts and tribunals of the Federation; and, finally, the modification or adaptation of the existing law in force in the territories of the Federation.

As the First Secretary said, this is an enabling Bill, and it is provided in Clause 2 that the Order shall be subject to affirmative Resolutions if made after 1st August, 1963, and to the possibility of annulment by either House retrospectively if made before 1st October, 1963. This will allow the arrangements to go ahead during the Summer Recess. Nevertheless, I think that it is, in principle, unsatisfactory that Parliament may be deprived of the chance to amend the terms of the Order before it is made. The Government had, of course, to encourage Mr. Winston Field to