Page:I Talked with Gandhi.djvu/5

 acknowledged by the Indians and the British as THE leader of India, and he did it—he had no organization, no money, no clothing, he didn’t have a house, no insurance—nothing. He just had himself.

Burke: And now, Mr. Fischer, that interests me and particularly the remark you made about his being a bad lawyer, and the other day I heard you remark that he had almost been a failure up to the time that he got a new vision in South Africa. I’d like to ask you: "Isn’t this true—and why is it true, if you think it is—that he, in the thinking from the American point of view, never was a success. He failed in nearly everything that we consider success. Why was this man—a failure—able to get such a following when we think in this country that a man must always succeed?"

Fischer: Gandhi succeeded in being true to himself. That’s the greatest success. He was true to himself; he was true to his God: he was true to his ideals. That’s a greater success than making a lot of money.

Burke: That is true, but what I'm wondering is, would that kind of man, instead of spending his time in a counting house, spending and buying property and getting large values, would he win out in this country, standing for the same things if he spent most of his time in jail?

Fischer: No, I suppose not, but there was something of Gandhi in Lincoln, and there’s something of Gandhi in Professor Albert Einstein, apart from his science where he has been a great success. The way to judge a man is by what he strives for—what he wants. If he wants to rebuild the world, of course he's not going to be a success in the material things, but he is going to become a great person; he’s going to grow. The interesting thing about Gandhi was that he grew to the last day of his life at the age of 78 and you could see him increase in stature—in moral, intellectual stature.

The growth we count other people by is how much money they have in the bank, how much more money they have this year than last year. And with Gandhi, as well as with a number of other people, we judge them by their increase in stature and by their loyalty to their principles. That's the way India judged Gandhi, and that’s the way the world is beginning to judge Gandhi.

Burke: Doesn’t India really consider people of that character more valuable than men of wealth?

Fischer: Yes, yes, they stand in awe before wealth and strength, but they have reverence for the weak and the poor: for those who renounce the material things. And I think that Gandhi’s hold on the Indian mind is because he renounced wealth, and what is more "Life is a gift... living an achievement." NEW OUTLOOK