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Rh of -- they got a -- to issue a bond by telling Bear Stearns that they'd sold a bunch of units to a bunch of Russian gangsters.

And, of course, they didn't put that in the underwriting information, they just said, we've sold a bunch of units and here's who bought them, and that's how they got the credit. So that's sort of an example of the alternative financing.

Now, the other way that he got financing was by not being an equity partner in the project, finding an equity partner and offering, you know, licensing or marketing arrangement where, you know, he was the, you know, the brand.

But, you know, what I began to conclude was that the Trump brand is a mixed brand and that, you know, he may have had other ways of lining up buyer interests showing that he had buyer interest to his equity partners and telling them we've got lots of Russians who are going to buy these properties, and that's why we should do this project.

And I think the Trump Hollywood is an example and the Sunny Isles Beach are some of the best domestic examples of that kind of interplay.

MR. SCHIFF: And tell me about the Trump Hollywood project. That was an example of the latter or the former? Did they get the financing from what you could tell because they got a bunch of Russians to presale, or did they go to a bank and say these are our investors, or how did they go about that?

MR. SIMPSON: Well, eventually, I mean, they lost the project. It went under. I, can't -- I'm not -- I'm sure we did look at who the creditors were, who the lenders were. This is the project that Sergi Millian appears to have been involved in, and there's a picture of Jorge Perez, Donald Trump, and Sergi Millian.

And he tells a story about meeting Donald Trump at the golf -- at a racetrack, drinking a bottle of Crystal with him, seems -- he gave him some UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE