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 bring about that independence. The Moslem masses sympathize with the one over-all goal of Congress: freedom for India. That is the solid rock on which Hindu-Moslem unity can be built.”

I made one last effort to bring the conversation back to the question of excess population. I could only get him to say that, “If there is large-scale industrialization, the state will of course have to lead the process.”

In the evening I went over to Mahadev Desai’s hut and watched him spin. He is the editor of Harijan, Gandhi’s English-language weekly, and he helped Gandhi to write his autobiography. He said he gave up his law practice at the age of twenty-five and has been closely associated with Gandhi ever since; that is, for the last twenty-five years. He told me that my talks with Gandhi have been the most important that he has had with any foreigner since 1939. He keeps complete notes of everything that Gandhi says, and he has notes of my conversations too. As we sat on the floor, I could understand how relaxing and pacifying the motions of spinning could be.

“All these days,” I said to Desai, “I have been listening carefully to Gandhi, and recording his words after each interview, and then rereading them and thinking about them and trying to fathom the source of Gandhi’s great influence. I