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170 Mr. But I'm a potential witness.

Ms. Got it.

Mr. So I just think it's a slippery slope for me to start characterizing public information.

Ms. Sure. You stated that attempting to obstruct justice, even if it does not work, is still a Federal crime. Would you agree?

Mr. That's my recollection.

Ms. And there's been a growing narrative amongst conservative media that obstruction of justice is a mere process crime, that even if President Trump did obstruct justice, it really isn't that big of a deal if Special Counsel Mueller can't also demonstrate that he committed the ostensible underlying crime of colluding with or aiding and abetting with Russia to interfere with the election. Do you agree with that?

Mr. No, and I've been hearing that for 30 years. Crimes that involve investigation -- that involve attacks on the criminal justice system, perjury, false statements, obstruction of justice, jury tampering, are things -- are statutes that Congress passed to protect the core of this country's rule of law, and so I never think of them as process crimes. They're serious and important Federal crimes.

Ms. And how important do you think it would be if the President of the United States attempted to impede a criminal investigation into his associates or his campaign?