Page:CTRL0000034610 - Deposition of Keith Kellogg, Jr., (Dec. 14, 2021).pdf/35

35 Mr. . The President.

Mr. Coale. Okay.

BY MR. :

All right. And so this same reporting, understanding your answers to the recent questions, but the same reporting says that walking out of this meeting, you told Pat Cipollone that, "Pat, you need to go back in there, you need to keep pounding away at it." And he said, "I'm not going back in there," on this issue about sending votes back to the States.

That was a different time. And I remember telling Pat -- and I can't honestly,, I'm trying to remember when it was -- but I was advising Pat at the time that everybody needs to take a deep breath. And I think the term I used was "take a knee."

In the military, taking a knee means take a deep breath, relax. And Pat was upset, and I'm trying to remember what it was. I said, "Pat, everybody just needs to calm down."

And that's when -- and,, I cannot remember. But I do remember talking to Cipollone about that in the Oval about something. Because my frustration at the time was, at the time when cool heads are supposed to prevail, meaning when you're an adviser, that's when you take a deep breath and give your best advice, is it was spinning. And Pat was one of those I thought was spinning; meaning, that's when I would want Pat Cipollone to put on his Chief White House Counsel hat and just deep breath and take the emotion out of it and try to do the best he could.

Honestly, I'm trying to remember when it was, but I do remember that conversation in the middle of the Oval with me and Pat.

Okay. And I'll give you a second if you want to see if you can remember,