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31 Jacob or anybody else had such conversations with the Vice President.

The No, I was not. Not at all,.

Mr. . You also said -- and I won't get the wording exactly right -- but something to the effect of, the President was getting contrary advice from his lawyers than the advice the Vice President was getting.

When you referred to the President's lawyers, are you referring to inside lawyers, meaning White House Counsel/Deputy White House Counsel, or outside lawyers who may have been involved?

The The one I'm referring to -- and if you give me the names I'd probably get it -- in-house lawyers, not necessarily Pat Cipollone, because I didn't -- in with Pat.

But example. The morning of 6 January, there was a White House lawyer in the Oval Office sitting there.

Mr. . Is that Eric Herschmann? Pat Philbin?

The It wasn't Pat. It may have been Eric. Gray-haired gentleman, short hair. There was a lawyer sitting in the room. It was White House Counsel.

BY MR. :

And do you know what they were discussing?

He didn't say a word when I was in there.

He, the lawyer?

Uh-huh. That's why you're shocked that the lawyer wouldn't say anything. Yeah, he sat there and he -- but he didn't -- when I was in the Oval Office, he didn't say a word. He just sat there.

So, to your knowledge, were there White House lawyers who were advising President Trump that the Vice President had authority to reject electors from contested