Page:CTRL0000034610 - Deposition of Keith Kellogg, Jr., (Dec. 14, 2021).pdf/23

23 were several occasions, not necessarily this one, where they did not necessarily agree. So -- and, by the way, that wasn't just the Vice President or the President; it was also members of the Cabinet.

And the pressure, what I mean by that is, the applied pressure of the President saying and the way he made decisions was he would pressure you, and he would pressure you to find out what I -- that's the reason I said Socratic -- how deep was your conviction. Did you really believe what you were saying or are you just saying that to make yourself feel good?

So he would always apply that. And if you knew that was coming, which I did, you were always ready for it. Because I said, okay -- and I would always look around the room and say -- or believe -- okay, you know, this is going to be an interesting even because how deep does this person believe are his convictions.

So the President would do that routinely. So it didn't just happen here, but it was one of those that if you weren't ready for it, it was always sometimes hard to see, because there were people put on the hot seat -- to use a common term -- and they would squirm in the hot seat. And --

And --

I'm sorry.

Was it election-related issues that you said just now bothered you or that led to this fracture that upset you?

No. What bothered me,, was the personal relationship between the two, because they were both -- you know, it was like they may have been the odd couple.

What did you see that was causing this fracture?

Well, I think they just had two different views of what was happening subsequent to 6 January and what -- or, correction, not 6 January -- what happened with