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1 the book "Profiles in Courage" was all about. When John F. Kennedy wrote that book,

2 that was people who had made very hard decisions against what they were doing, even if

3 it was voting against an impeachment of the President of the United States, you know,

4 which was done in the 1860s. And my point to him was that.

5    So I talked to him a few times that day when he was in the EOB. I talked to Marc

6 Short, and that day and subsequent days I told him I think they ought to put their big boy

7 pants on, or words to that effect.

8   Q  Okay. So getting back to the Vice President, when you said he should be a

9 chapter in "Profiles in Courage," I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but did you

10 agree with the position he took?

11   Q I agreed with -- I agreed with the position he took as a person, and he

12 followed his beliefs. And in the face of that, in a very tough environment, he stood his

13 ground, and he stood what he was -- you know, tried to.

14    Candidly, I wish he had --  I wish he'd taken the advice, very candidly, of former

15 President -- Vice President Quayle, and it's something I'd said to Marc Short, and they did,

16 which I said, you should have asked the Parliamentarian of the Senate what to do.

17    Q But you don't know if he did that or not, right?

18    A No. I don't think he did.

19    Q When you spoke to the Vice President, we talked about emotions being raw,

20 was he angry about--

21    A No.

22    Q -- what happened on January 6th?

23    A No. Mike Pence never -- look. I gave them both -- they have -- his

24 nickname by the Secret Service was the Hoosier. Mogul was the President. I gave

25 them Fire and Ice. Fire was the President, Ice was Pence.