Page:CTRL0000034600 - Transcribed Interview of Richard Peter Donoghue, (Oct. 1, 2021).pdf/132

132 going to be a disaster. The bureaucracy will eat you alive. And no matter how much you want to get things done in the next few weeks, you won't be able to get it done, and it's not going to be worth the breakage."

I think someone else had used that term earlier, maybe Pat Cipollone, "Is it really worth the breakage?" And the President said, "It's not going to be worth the breakage to make this change at this point."

Uh-huh.

And he said again, "These two, I know, are not going to get it done. But that is what it is at this point." He talked about how disappointed he was in us, but said to Clark that, I'm just not going to do this.

At that point, Clark began trying to get the President to change his mind. He said a number of things—you know, history is calling, this is our opportunity, we can get this done, and so on and so forth. And the President then just sort of doubled down and said, "No, we're not going to do it."

Uh-huh.

At that point, the President looked at me and said, "So now what happens with him?", gesturing toward Jeff Clark. I didn't understand the question. I said, "Sir?" And he said, "Are you going to fire him?"

I said, "No, I'm not going to fire him. I don't have the authority to fire him. He's a Senate-confirmed Assistant Attorney General." And the President said, "Well, I'm not going to fire him." I said, "Well, that's fine then, sir. We should all just go back to work."

And we all got up and walked out of the Oval Office.