Page:CTRL0000034600 - Transcribed Interview of Richard Peter Donoghue, (Oct. 1, 2021).pdf/128

128 different ways, and I think that had an impact on the President. I think he likes to see that difference of view and different approach, and I think he lets people speak their mind and fight it out in front of him before he makes a decision.

I mean, I've heard this meeting described sort of like an "Apprentice"-like meeting, where there's a firing decision at the end. Is that a fair characterization?

I can honestly say I've never seen 1 minute of "The Apprentice" in my life, so I can't opine about that.

Fair enough.

Anyone else threaten to resign? Mr. Philbin or Mr. Herschmann or anyone else who was present? Mr. Meadows?

Meadows was not there.

I'm sorry, Mr. Meadows wasn't there. Excuse me. My mistake.

Right. I don't remember if anyone else said anything specifically. I think Pat Philbin and Pat Cipollone were always sort of viewed as a package deal, so—

Yeah.

—if I thought about it for a moment, I would've thought, if Cipollone is leaving, Philbin's leaving too.

But it was more a matter of me saying, "You're going to lose your Department leadership," and then Pat Cipollone stepping in and saying, "And, basically, you're going to lose your White House counsel as well."

Yeah. Okay.

After, I believe, he makes the decision to stay the course and leave Mr. Rosen in, does he then start talking about the U.S. attorney in Atlanta, Mr. Pak?

I think that was actually before that.

Okay.