Page:CTRL0000034600 - Transcribed Interview of Richard Peter Donoghue, (Oct. 1, 2021).pdf/127

127 He came back to that at the very end when he decided against a leadership change. And he announced that, and then he came back to that point and he said, "And I know that these two here, they're not going to do anything. They're not going to fix this. But that's the way it is, and I'm going to let it go anyway."

Did Mr. Cipollone say anything about what he would do with respect to a potential resignation if the President made this change?

He did at some point. I guess that was on the heels of us talking about how there would be resignations in the Department. And I think Pat Cipollone said, "Well, I'm not going to stand for this, I'm not going to be here if this happens either."

So he said he would resign or not stand for it, would not be here, if the President made this change.

Right.

Who, Mr. Donoghue, was, sort of, the primary advocate or voice against the leadership change? Was it you personally, or was it sort of a consensus and everyone was sort of equally chiming in? Or just give me a better sense as to, sort of, who was doing most of the talking and was the most strenuous advocate.

It was definitely a consensus. We were all on the same page except for Jeff Clark. But we played different roles.

For one thing, Jeff Rosen was in a bad position because he was defending his own job. So anything he said, obviously, was very self-interested. And so he wasn't in the best position to make some of these arguments. And by demeanor, he just has a different demeanor, as does Pat Cipollone, as does Steve Engel. So everyone played their own role. My demeanor is more aggressive and more blunt, and so I played that role.

And so everyone was on the same page, advocating for the same thing in very