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According to witness testimony, the May 23 debriefing with the President in the Oval Office proved consequential for two reasons. President Trump authorized Ambassador Sondland, Secretary Perry, and Ambassador Volker to lead engagement with the President Zelensky’s new administration in Ukraine. He instructed them, however, to talk to and coordinate with his personal attorney, Mr. Giuliani.

Ambassador Sondland, Ambassador Volker, Secretary Perry, and Senator Johnson “took turns” making their case “that this is a new crowd, it’s a new President” in Ukraine who was “committed to doing the right things,” including fighting corruption.$232$ According to Ambassador Sondland, the group “emphasized the strategic importance of Ukraine” and the value to the United States of strengthening the relationship with President Zelensky.$233$ They recommended that President Trump once again call President Zelensky and follow through on his April 21 invitation for President Zelensky to meet with him in the Oval Office.$234$

President Trump reacted negatively to the positive assessment of Ukraine. Ambassador Volker recalled that President Trump said Ukraine is “a terrible place, all corrupt, terrible people” and was “just dumping on Ukraine.”$235$ This echoed Mr. Giuliani’s public statements about Ukraine during early May.

According to both Ambassadors Volker and Sondland, President Trump also alleged, without offering any evidence, that Ukraine “tried to take me down” in the 2016 election.$236$ The President emphasized that he “didn’t believe” the delegation’s positive assessment of the new Ukrainian president, and added “that’s not what I hear” from Mr. Giuliani.$237$ President Trump said that Mr. Giuliani “knows all of these things” and knows that President Zelensky has “some bad people around him.”$238$ Rather than committing to an Oval Office meeting with the Ukrainian leader, President Trump directed the delegation to “[t]alk to Rudy, talk to Rudy.”$239$

Ambassador Sondland testified that the “Three Amigos” saw the writing on the wall and concluded “that if we did not talk to Rudy, nothing would move forward on Ukraine.”$240$ He continued:


 * [B]ased on the President’s direction we were faced with a choice. We could abandon the goal of a White House meeting for President Zelensky, which we all believed was crucial to strengthening U.S.-Ukrainian ties … or we could do as President Trump directed and talk to Mr. Giuliani to address the President’s concerns. We chose the latter path.$241$

Ambassador Volker reached a similar conclusion. He believed “that the messages being conveyed by Mr. Giuliani were a problem, because they were at variance with what our official message to the President was, and not conveying that positive assessment that we all had. And so, I thought it was important to try to step in and fix the problem.”$242$ Ultimately, however, the “problem” posed by the President’s instruction to coordinate regarding Ukraine with his personal attorney persisted and would become more acute.