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 "I believe [Mayor Giuliani] was getting bad information, and I believe that his negative messaging about Ukraine would be reinforcing the President's already negative position about Ukraine. So I discussed this with President Zelensky when I saw him in Toronto on July 3rd, and I said I think this is a problem that we have Mayor Giuliani—so I didn't discuss his meeting with Lutsenko then. That came later. I only learned about that later. But I discussed even on July 3rd with President Zelensky that you have a problem with your message of being, you know, clean, reform, that we need to support you, is not getting—or is getting countermanded or contradicted by a negative narrative about Ukraine, that it is still corrupt, there's still terrible people around you. At this time, there was concern about his chief of presidential administration, Andriy Bohdan, who had been a lawyer for a very famous oligarch in Ukraine. And so I discussed this negative narrative about Ukraine that Mr. Giuliani seemed to be furthering with the President."

On July 21, Ambassador Sondland sent a text message to Ambassador Taylor that read: "[W]e need to get the conversation started and the relationship built, irrespective of the pretext. I am worried about the alternative." Ambassador Sondland testified that the word "pretext" concerned agreement on an interview or press statement and that the "alternative" was no engagement at all between President Trump and President Zelensky. Ambassador Sondland testified that he viewed giving a press interview or making a press statement as different from pressuring Ukraine to investigate political rival.

On August 9, Ambassador Sondland sent a text message to Ambassador Volker, writing in part: "I think potus [sic] really wants the deliverable." Ambassador Sondland testified that "deliverable" referred to the Ukrainian press statement. Ambassador Volker testified that President Trump wanted a public commitment to reform as a "deliverable":

Q. And what—yeah, what did you understand what the Presidentwanted by deliverable?

A. That statement that had been under conversation.

Q. That was the deliverable from Zelensky that the President wanted before he would commit to— 58